Do You Really Want To Live In Norway?
Some people think they can just pack up their gear and move to Norway. They think that once they get a cosy apartment they will find a good job earning lots of money, make great friends and live happily ever after. All I can say about this is: hmmm.
Over the past couple of years I’ve been watching several new blogs from people who have suddenly decided to make Norway their new home. But alas, it doesn’t take them long after moving to Norway to realise their mistake – their dream of a new, exciting life in Norway hasn’t quite turned out. Not only that, they often return to their old country beaten, jobless, and in a great amount of debt.
As I am a ‘survivor’ of Norway, I thought I’d share a real outlook on what it is like to move to Norway. Hopefully this will expose some of the misconceptions for ‘new-movers’ so they can make better choices. This is not a pessimistic view but a ‘preparing for the worst, hoping for the best’ point of view. But remeber there are always two sides so after reading this one check out the other side with the post: Why Live in Norway
Why people choose Norway
Below are some of the seemingly positive benefits of living in Norway and factors that help people decide on Norway. However, be very, very careful on basing your decision to move to Norway on them. They are not always what they seem:
Moving to Norway for Social Benefits:
Some people want to come to Norway because they think the government will support them with social benefits. However, in Norway, the attitude is that everyone is a worker and pulls their own load. Even though this is a ‘socialist’ country, ‘equal rights’ has gone far beyond ‘rights’ and many choices are hindered to try and make everyone ‘equal’. If a Norwegian has to work for their food and keep, so do you.
Social Welfare/National Insurance Scheme
Some people become a little excited about the Social Welfare System in Norway. They think they will receive good benefits freely especially if they want to have kids here. However, there are many conditions on Welfare and unfortunately this information is generally only in Norwegian.
- Unemployment Benefits
For Job Welfare/Unemployment Benefits, (meaning you have lost your job and want to claim financial support), you need to be a resident (meaning, at least, holding a Residency Permit), have worked for a certain period of time (normally a year in a full time job), earning a certain amount of money and paying tax, before you can claim. Unemployment benefit only entitles you to a percentage of your previous wage and after a year you are cut off unless for good reasons like injury. After a certain period ‘on the dole’ you are required to attend job seeking courses. NAV, the national job centre, can even choose a job for you – cleaner, garbologist, waiter – and you are also expected to up and move anywhere in the country for any job otherwise you can be cut off from unemployment welfare payments. Now all these ‘benefits’ are dependent on your Permit status in Norway and many ‘new-movers’ do not qualify.
Child Welfare Benefits
- Maternity/Paternity Leave
For maternity leave you will need to have worked for a period of time (at least a year) earning a certain amount of money before the birth before you can claim maternity leave benefits. This also applies to paternity benefits. These benefits will be a percentage of your normal taxable income paid by your employer. However, in general, Paternity Benefits are based on the mother’s income which is usually less than the father’s income. ’New-movers’ who haven’t worked for at least a year or paid tax are not entitled to such benefits. Also, ‘new-movers’ may be in breech of some Permits (because they have stopped work) and will be required to return to their home country. If you have not worked in Norway for at least a year then you cannot claim any maternity or paternity benefits. Also, this benefit is dependant on your Permit status in Norway and many ‘new-movers’ do not qualify. - Having A Baby for Permits and Welfare
I’ve seen some ‘new-movers’ (especially students) think that as soon as they get in the border they will have a baby to help them stay in the country. They think their new born will be a Norwegian citizen. However, this is not the case. Children born in Norway to non-Norwegian citizens do not automatically become Norwegian citizens. They will hold the citizenship of their parents home country. Only when one of the parents is Norwegian can a child be born Norwegian. So this method of having a baby to try to stay in the country and claim benefits is not feasible. - Birth and Child Benefits
All babies born in Norway receive at least kr. 30,000 to be claimed only in the first year, and only if the mother is currently unemployed and has not had employment the previous year. All babies receive just under kr. 1000 a month. If you are a stay-at-home-mum/dad another kr. 3000 or so from 1 years to 3 years is given for home care. This cuts off at 3 years because you are expected to put your child in childcare and you are expected to return to full-time work. These benefits are for all children with parents who hold at least a Residency Permit status. Note: These benefits are for the child and is nowhere near enough to live on. The child’s other parent is expected to work and support the family, or if you are separated, will have to pay child maintenance. The Social Welfare system will support maintenance if the other parent isn’t working but this is very minimal. And of course, these guidelines only apply if the ‘new-mover’s’ Permits allow for such benefits. - Medical Benefits
Medical benefits are granted to all residents of Norway but as a ‘new-mover’ this is conditional on your entry to Norway. Each person is expected to pay up to kr. 2000,- a year in appointments before the ‘free’ Medical Benefits kick in. If you do not have a social number you will have to pay for your own medical fees. To get all the medical benefits you need to be a contributing member of the National Insurance scheme, meaning you earn enough money and have paid tax for at least 12 months. Children and pregnancy related medical appointments are free. Dentistry is not covered under the National Insurance Scheme and usually range between kr. 600-1000,- for general consultations. NOTE: A good amount of people get depression during the dark season and insomnia during the light season. This problem is not really addressed in Norway. Mental health is only recognised if a person has a serious condition such as autism. There is generally no services for anyone to see a therapist for emotional or life issues. - Pension Benefits
The basic Pension Benefits from the government (for retirement) are granted to those who are Settlement Permit/Permanent Permit holders, meaning you permanently live in Norway. (To get a Settlement Permit you must have lived in Norway for three years and attended at least 300 hours of Norwegian Classes.) Norway will only grant a basic pension from the time you have lived in the country. The rest of your pension will need to come from the other countries you have worked/lived in. If you have worked in Norway you will be granted more according to your average wage. The basic pension is similar to a students income. This is one of the reasons many Norwegians retire to Spain to try and stretch their money further. There are so many Norwegian retirees there that the prime minister even goes there to campaign. If you want things like a car, good food and a nice place to live you will need to work to add to your basic pension.
Moving to Norway for Wages and Work Conditions:
Some people read about how high the wages are in Norway and get all droolly. In Norway a bottom end wage is about kr. 240,000,- For most countries that seems a lot but in Norway you can just scrape by on that for one person. The poverty level is considered below kr. 215,000,-. A comfortable wage for a single person would be about kr. 300, 000. A beginner teachers wage is about kr, 320,000 – 350,000. Higher than that you need to be in management, business, computing, oil, or have at least a Masters Degree. But what ‘new-movers’ don’t consider are the money drainers – you need to consider the cost of living in Norway:
- Tax in Norway
Tax is very high in Norway. It needs to be in order to provide all the great Social Welfare Benefits. The lowest tax you will pay if you have a kr. 250,000 p.a. job is 36%. That is over a third of your wage gone to the tax-man. - Accommodation in Norway
A one bedroom apartment in Oslo to rent is at least kr, 72,000 p.a (about US$14,000 p.a). It can be very difficult to find a place to live unless you are willing to hand over the money. (Even students have to spend months in university bunkers until they can find a place to live.) The other thing about renting is that you are often expected to pay three to six months rent up front and when you leave it is normal to give 3 months notice. This can make moving costly and sometimes frustrates life if you get a job in another city. Rent doesn’t usually include utilities if in a separate apartment. Heating costs, especially in Winter, will suck up a lot of money and can equal 20% of your rent. - Food in Norway
Norway has to import a lot of food and the import taxes are outrageous. In order to save money you have to learn how to eat like a Norwegian otherwise you will be spending a fortune. Simple everyday items are very pricey – capsicum/sweet peppers can be kr.50-70,- per kilo in the winter which is about US$10-14. Eating out is certainly a luxury. One large pizza at a restaurant is on average kr.250,- or about $50. A large MacDonalds meal is around kr.120 – thats about US$20 for a (squished) burger, fries and coke. Food will be one of a ‘new-mover’s’ killer costs. - Transport in Norway
To get anywhere in Norway it costs a lot of money. Catching a bus for a day can at least set you back kr. 50,- ($10). It is easy to walk but you will not survive the Winters unless you ski/sled everywhere. Because Norway is long and has a lot of mountain ranges it is essential to fly from city to city. Buying a car in Norway (kr.250,000,- for a basic new station-wagon is about $50,000) has very high taxes and don’t even think about buying one in a cheaper country and driving it over as you will also be lumped with import taxes. - Work Conditions
Work conditions are very good in Norway. The general hours are 8am to 4pm, Monday to Friday. It is rare to get overtime. You are expected to socialise, are pressured to join the union and generally have to take your holidays in one big lump during Summer. If you don’t speak Norwegian you will usually be under contract to know the language by a certain time which is very hard to do as everyone will just speak English to you. I know of a few university lecturers that are finding this extremely hard and are worried about their future employment. - Moving to Norway Unemployed
A lot of ‘new-movers’ think they can get a job after they have moved to Norway – very bad idea. If you do not have your Permits in place you are unemployable. Usually if you do not know fluent Norwegian you will not be employed unless you are a specialist in your field. Being a ‘specialist’ means that there is no one in Norway that can do what you do. However, if you do find an employer to employ you without your permits you will likely have to leave Norway to get your full-time employer to take all the necessary legal steps for your immigration and that usually means you cannot enter Norway until your employment application has been approved by UDI. However, UDI has been trying to make the process quicker and there are some exceptions. If employers don’t follow these rules then they could pay hefty fines for ‘illegally’ employing you. You can never expect to just ‘walk’ into a job here in Norway.
So as you can see, ‘new-movers’ will need to be financially stable in order to wait out the gaps – it is good to have at least six months worth of moving-to-Norway-savings. Even if you are employed from the get-go you are likely to wait a month before you get your first full pay check as most wages are paid monthly in Norway. You cannot get paid unless you have a bank account and you cannot get a bank account if you don’t have a social number. To get a social number you have to be approved by UDI. Quiet often this domino effect straps people for cash. A few employers provide financial relocation packages and a short term place for you to stay but this is only for certain employees. If you want internet, a phone, cable, you have to play the waiting game.
Moving to Norway for Free Education:
Education is certainly an attraction to moving to Norway as schools and universities are State run which are free. The other schools are generally ‘international’ or ‘cultural’ in which you can pay through the nose. Even though university is free, practically all undergraduate courses require you to have passed Norwegian at high school level. There are subjects that don’t require Norwegian but 99.9% of bachelor courses have core subjects that teach and exam in Norwegian. This is because every course requires a pass in core philosophy, which is a Norwegian language subject. However, you do not need Norwegian language for Master and PhD programs – although for some study areas you will be limited in choice.
Even though education is free, living is certainly not. Most Norwegian students have to take a loan out from the government to pay for living expenses unless they can still live with their parents. The loan is equivalent to the cost of a university education anyway – and in Norway that is a big debt! At least kr.80,000 per year (US$17,000) and when you consider the poverty level wage is kr.215,000 it is evident that families struggle greatly when a spouse studies. However, a lot of ‘new-movers’ do not qualify for such support. If you complete the course some of the loan is turned into a grant. People who can apply for student loans are: Political Refugees, those married to a Norwegian Citizen, Family Reunification Permit holders, children under 19, those who have had full-time employment for at least 24 months and those who have already studied in Norway with their own finances for at least three years. This sounds all fine and dandy but then you have to pay the loan back with interest. If you plan to one day move back to a cheaper country (like Australia) you can almost guarantee to be paying the loan back until you die. Only richer countries like Norway will enable you to pay off your loan in a decent time.
Moving to Norway for the Stats:
Some ‘new-movers’ decide to live in Norway based on international statistics found on wiki. Although ‘stats’ seem to give you a good idea of the country they can also be deceiving in terms of real life.
Human Development Index – Standard of Living
Some people don’t understand what the ‘Human Development Index’ really is. As Norway has one of the highest indexes in the world people often think life is more luxurious than other places. But what the Human Development Index really looks at is: how many people per capita is educated, how many people per capita live to a ripe age and the quality of income and healthcare services. This index has nothing to do with the lay idea of ‘standard of living’ which actually is perceived as quality of living judged by lifestyle, convenience, richness and happiness. In fact, the US, UK, France, Australia and Canada practically have the same ‘colour’ index of ‘quality’ as Norway.
However, the ‘qualities of living’ in Norway are different to the other countries with the same ‘standard of living’ colour index. In general, most normal produce needs to be imported and therefore fresh food tends to be second class. There is not much fresh meat available – a lot of things are still frozen or canned. Practically no organic and it is really hard for diabetic diets. In a lot of cities and regions facilities are at a minimum, for example, there are long waiting lists for children activities (Lilu has been on a waiting list for two years just to do a baby gym class). A fair amount of teachers are unqualified because there aren’t enough in Norway. (And I know what you are thinking, ‘Job! Job! Job!’ but to be employed as an unqualified teacher you have to speak Norwegian at an advanced level.) Norway is not big on ‘convenience’ – shops are closed on Sundays, there is no such thing as 24 hour shopping, over Summer a lot of businesses run at half mask (don’t even think about getting cable at this time) and regular transport schedules reduce dramatically, limited food products, limited speciality stores and products (such as maternity wear, books, shoes etc), very limited customer service, limited activities (no rugby football, baseball, cricket or netball – not seen even on TV), extreme limit of employment options (no fashion gurus, mobile dog washers, landscape gardeners, wrestlers, - people who make life fun), no real ethnic restaurants or food – just Norwegianized versions, no ethnic celebrations or festivals, and the list goes on. Now, of course there are always exceptions, one-off here and there, and I am certainly not talking about Oslo, but most of the rest of the country. Consider Norway as a bare minimum English or American country town with 50,000 people and you will get a good idea of the conveniences, services and offers.
Social Health Index
Social Health doesn’t have anything to do with physical or mental health. It’s related to the health of the country in terms of: the rule of law, equality in the distribution of wealth, public accessibility of the decision-making process, and the level of social capital. These standards are in most top western countries but the two that are controversial in Norway to the international arena are:
1. Norway is a Social-democratic society. Norwegians are constantly told they are rich and therefore are expected to give more.
2. Feminism is at its peak here so much so that it is frowned upon for women to take on traditional roles such as ‘home-maker’.
Environmental Performance Index
This index refers to the quality of drinking water, sanitation, pollution, disease etc. Norway is a Western country and has all the normal performance features as other Western countries but the reason why it does particularly well in this index is because of population. Norway has less than five million people spread over the land. The largest collective population is in Olso city with only 5oo,oo0 people. Most of the environment is untouched because of continuous mountain ranges. It is closest to one of the most ‘purest’ places on the planet – the Arctic. This has a relatively large impact on the index’s stats as it is only indexed according to the norm of other countries such as the US and UK which don’t enjoy such low human footprints.
Moving to Norway for Lifestyle:
‘New-movers’ have heard a lot of rumours about the Norwegian lifestyle. Norway is certainly a breath taking country to live in when it comes to scenery. It is also famous for healthy outdoor activities in the Summer and Winter seasons. But one thing is always overlooked by ‘new-movers’ when it comes to ‘lifestyle’ in Norway and that is the ‘social living’. Norway can be a lonely place to live if you are used to big cities, lots of people and English speaking. When you move to Norway you can’t rely on Norwegians to help you out, become your friends, give you advice or even talk to you. Norway is very hard on single ‘new-movers’, however, couples and families can have a slightly easier time. All activities are in Norwegian, all courses are in Norwegian, all National broadcasts are in Norwegian, all theatre, all newspapers, all websites, all information is in Norwegian. There are no community celebrations accepted except for Norwegian traditions and holidays. If you do not know Norwegian you can become isolated from society very easily.
A lot of ‘new movers’ who are used to the sun find the long dark Winters particularly hard and even Norwegians get depression. During the dark season Norway lives indoors. It is often sludgy, slippery and very wet on the walking paths and streets and the amount of work that is involved in daily life just to get somewhere – trudging through a metre of snow, very slippery ice paths, no footpaths, darkness, sweeping cars for a metre of snow every day – can make a lot of people stay indoors. Many strategies need to be followed to survive the Winters like drinking fish oil, exercising every day and getting out of the house every day. Even Oslo has a long ugly Spring and requires some getting used to. If you are not a nature-loving, active person who enjoys the cold and wet then Norway certainly isn’t the place for you.
What you need to move to Norway:
The first thing you will need is a backup plan. If you want to move to Norway you should have at least two of the things below (one being either a good job or money):
A good job
Work will give you much needed money and social contact. It is the only way to survive in Norway.
A good Norwegian family
The support of family is vital in Norway. A Norwegian family can teach you how to live, how to eat and how to be happy. A Norwegian family makes life so much easier.
Language
Knowing the language will give you much better employment options. You will be more accepted in society and be able to communicate with everyone. It will establish you in your new life and you won’t have to go through, the sometimes unpleasant, ‘immigrant’ stage.
Education
Having at least a Bachelor Degree will be very beneficial. Employers these days look for people who have Master Degrees. Your education is vital to good survival in Norway. If you are uneducated then expect to get jobs in child care or cleaning. Even people with Bachelor degrees work these jobs because their chosen degree doesn’t qualify them for Norwegian jobs and they do not know the language.
Money
If you have a good amount of savings that you are willing to use then it is much easier to move to Norway. Do not come to Norway unless you are financially stable and can support the family you bring with you. If you do not have a job, a good amount of savings – a years worth of living expenses x 2 (for Norwegian value) to support everyone will be a great help. Life can be very hard for new movers if they don’t have a jobs. It is also very hard for a family to live off one income. A three bedroom house/apartment will take about 50% of your wage. Add in the 36% tax and there is not much to play with.
Climate Adaptable
If you like the darkness and not seeing the sun or not having sun-warmth for 6 months of the year, then Norway is the place for you!
Still interested in moving to Norway?
If you still want to live in Norway after reading all the above then there are some other qualities that you will need to be a survivor of Norway. You need to be resilient. Physical life in Norway is a lot harder than other countries. Just walking to the shops here will be twice as much effort – through snow, ice, long grass, hills etc. You need to shrug off all nuances of discrimination and racism. Norwegians don’t care for immigrants who complain and in fact, immigrants have developed a bad reputation as complainers. You need to enjoy your own company, especially if you move to Norway by yourself. You need to know how to physically look after your health because health services are very minimal. You have to learn the language whether you want to or not, whether you have a talent for it or not. You have to adapt to the Norway system of doing things. Going against the grain, complaining and thinking your way is better will only frustrate you. You shouldn’t get angry or ‘smart’ or bossy or be a know-it-all otherwise you will alienate yourself. If you are ready to be pleasant, humble, carefree and no bother than you are ready to be loved by Norway.
An example of a new mover surviving Norway: me!
(The first time.) I moved to Norway with post graduate education in a field where Norway doesn’t have these type of qualifications in their workforce so I was considered highly educated and employable. It also helped that I was a self-starter and initiated projects. I had a strong Norwegian family base with a Norwegian husband. I didn’t know the language but my Norwegian family helped me greatly with language and culture. Even though I didn’t have a job when I came to Norway my husband worked full time in a good job and could support me. As soon as my residency was accepted by UDI I found employment. I have lasted a lot longer than the people in my Norwegian language immigrant class. Most of them have packed it in and gone home. I was very active in the community, dedicating my time and talents, and created a good network of associates and friends.
Norway is one of the most wonderful places in the world. The people, culture and landscape are captivating. If you are willing to sacrifice much, then there are great rewards. Norway is certainly for those who like change, challenges and earn their stripes. Anyone can fall in love with Norway. The trick is to get Norway to fall in love with you.
The stat information above was correct at publishing. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules, differences from place to place, and changes. This post is in reply to many emails we receive about immigrating to Norway. This post is about giving a personal overview for people who want to know how it really is to move to Norway.
Part two of this series: Why Live in Norway



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Is it hard to get a job in Norway?
The Tyholt Tower is the second biggest tourist attraction in Trondheim.
Confirmations were important for entrance into adult life. One had to have their confirmation to be able to work or get married.
Aursfjord is a branch of Malangen Fjord in Balsfjord.
Nisse parties happen in many kindergartens, primary schools, church and community groups in Norway. They are a casual celebration of the julenisse (Christmas elf) tradition especially for children (but the big kids love them too).
Well, is this you have written based on your experiences of Norway? If so, have you been to Trondheim? ‘Cause I can’t really relate to everything you’ve written about living in Norway
Like how you can’t get fresh meat all year round… well maybe that’s true up north but here in mid-Norway you can get fresh meat all year round!
And the no sun for 6 months… well, that’s just not true for the whole country. You really should specify what you mean and explain to people that the whole of Norway is NOT submerged in darkness half of the year! There is still sun light in the winter if you live further south in Norway! Just less of it!
And just to clarify, if you live in a city like Trondheim: Of course, there will be English information for you! People nowadays are taught English at school and we have mottaks-skoler which creates more cultural diversity within the younger generations, which also helps the elder generations accept immigrants! But of course there is prejudice in Norway like any where else in the world! But people in Norway have started accepting immigrants more and more as the years have gone by and Norwegians (who aren’t complete idiots) have come to realise that people from outside of our country isn’t so different from us.
Ok, with that off my chest I will say, listen to L-Jay! She knows what she is talking about! She is a real life immigrant! :O And don’t expect moving to Norway to go easily! It might not and you must understand that Norway is NOT a horrible place to live in, but you also have to understand that it’s very different than what you are probably used to, and remember different parts of Norway can be completely different! So don’t judge Norway as a whole from one city!
I really love your blog L-Jay! I really don’t mean for you to take my comment the wrong way, really. Bye <3
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from L-Jay:
It’s great to invite discussions on topics like this and so any comments and feedback will help readers get a more rounded view of things – that’s what we want
. Challenges are most welcome
.
If you read the post you will find it is from personal experience and I have compensated saying that each place is different and there are always exceptions. But in reply to your comments:
When you come from a country of plenty of fresh produce and especially meat, Norway is a far cry. I’m sure in Trondheim you cannot buy A grade rib-eye steak or T-bone steak at the shops. It is extremely hard to buy fresh lamb out of season. It is very hard to find fresh roast-cut meat such as lamb, beef or chicken. You cannot buy fresh calamari, duck, turkey or rabbit. I’m sure you can’t buy fresh sausages of pork or chicken, beef or lamb either. I think this is because there are hardly any real butchers in Norway and some things are likely to be about culture and tradition as well as practical methods of production and storage. In fact, most of the ‘fresh’ meat you buy in the supermarket in Norway is just defrosted meat. It has travelled in freezer trucks to get to the store and then defrosted out the back before they bring it in for selling. (They do this too with the hot dog buns.) You especially notice this by the amount of water that fills the pan when you cook it. The ‘fresh deli’ section is very limited at all shops and usually the meat has been sitting out for days and is all dried on the outside. This I know from in Oslo, Harstad, Alta and Tromsø. (I even used to shop in the immigrant street in Oslo city who generally try to provide a little more variety and ‘freshness’.) You can get these meats readily all year in England, USA and Australia, at least. The lack of quality, freshness and variety of meat in Norway can make any food enthusiast a little melancholy. However, I might be a little picky as I did work as a chef in London…lol. (But we are very lucky to get real farm fresh meats living on a farm. I’ve been told if you want the real fresh stuff you have to make friends with the farmers or fishermen.)
When I said there is no sun in the same sentence I also said ‘sun-warmth’. The ‘dark season’ doesn’t just mean no sun – but also no warmth. The sun is so low in Norway during the Winter season that it is always like dusk and you have to wear heavy clothes to keep warm. You can’t go swimming in the fjord or sunbathing in Autumn to Spring in Trondheim (unless you are crazy) without freezing your buns off. You can’t wear just a t-shirt because it is not warm enough – even on a lot of Summer days. In Oslo, you only get the sun for a couple of hours a day during Winter. By the time you finish work (at about 4pm) it is already dark outside. People who are used to regular warm sun and bright light find it very hard to have a sun without warmth or strength.
The amount of English information is extremely minimal in Norway. Trondheim is no different than Oslo and is no different than Tromsø. If you go to tourist sites, of course, there is lots of English because they want your business. But the real test is to go to a local community website. Go to any Kommune website or Fylkeskommune website and you will find very limited resources in English. For example: the Trondheim Kommune website is packed with Norwegian information and as soon as you click on the little English flag up the top you get only four topics to read that basically provides only addresses and phone numbers – not real needed information. This is also the same as going to the state employment agency NAV – very little for non-Norwegian speakers on that site. I have also been waiting a very long time for translations in English from the new up-grades on the UDI website. The Norwegian section is a lot more comprehensive than the English section and I often have to get Moose to translate the Norwegian section so I can get the real information. It is very frustrating when ‘life’ services don’t cater for a variety of people. If you look at the Australian employment and social service website Centrelink you will find a section that has at least 30 different languages and you can also call for a translator. (Australia only has 23 mil people and yet the most important organisation to everyone, especially immigrants, provides great access to information in their own language. This is just an example of how much further Norway has to go in accepting people from other cultures.) To be part of the community you need to know information, even if you are an immigrant, and if information isn’t accessible then it frustrates the process of immigrants becoming contributing members of society.
There are always exceptions – one shop here, one shop there – one website here, one website there, etc but then there is the majority. One post cannot provide the specifics of every single town in Norway – only the majority – Trondheim is only one town. (Some call it a city.
)
This post is designed to be a wake up call for people who want to move to Norway. Even though it can be seen as very negative, it is meant to be
. As I said in the opening: This is not a pessimistic view but a ‘preparing for the worst, hoping for the best’ point of view. But I’m sure if people read all the other posts and see the pictures they will certainly see Norway as the land of dreams and would want to move here in a wink!
.
Thanks so much for your comment.
go back home, if you cant take it. the pepole living ther dont complain. go to the us how many pepole speak the norwgian ther, when you go to a store in norway somebodie will answer you, trie that at rainbow………
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from L-Jay:
This is a typical “if you don’t like Norway, go home” idea – however, this not what the human spirit is about. It is a very defeatist comment. If all the immigrants went home they would certainly take their Norwegian partners and family with them and I’m sure there would be no one left in Norway. One of the major reasons why immigrants come to Norway is work. The reason – because a Norwegian cannot fill the position (usually because Norwegians aren’t educated enough – Norway is actually 23rd in the world in education, behind New Zealand, Korea and even Poland). Norway needs immigrant workers to survive in the world, otherwise it would certainly turn into a 2nd world country. One of the biggest powers in the world was founded by immigrants.
Secondly, immigrants ‘complaining’ is the first step of improving Norway as it points out problems that need to be changed. Now, Norwegians, amongst themselves, have a reputation to be complainers and not doers. However, immigrants, when they complain, take opportunities to take action too. The State would be wise to listen to immigrants otherwise it will taint its ‘equality’ boast.
Hi L-Jay
I really liked your article! I live in Norway, and you made me realise that things that seem perfectly normal to me, might be totally new to immigrants.
There are some statements I don’t agree with though.
First: You say that if you want to earn more than 350.000 kr, you have to be in “management, business, computing, oil, or have at least a Masters Degree”. This is not true at all. Even electricians earn more than this (360.000 kr in average)
Secondly: “The reason – because a Norwegian cannot fill the position (usually because Norwegians aren’t educated enough”. This is not true either. At some fields, you can’t get the necessary education in Norway, and we need people from other countries to fill the position, that is true. Still, most immigrants get jobs that Norwegians don’t want, jobs that we are “too good” to take (e.g. cleaner, cashier, garbage collector, and so on)
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from L-Jay:
An electrician needs a three year education. Essentially that is the same length as a BA – hence, you need the higher education to earn that amount of money. An there is no way they can make that amount of money in the first years for the employment.
The reason is the point – Norway doesn’t provide a lot of eduction options for its people so therefore they aren’t educated enough to take certain positions. I’ve heard of many Norwegians having to go overseas to seek education that Norway doesn’t provide. I think this is a bad thing. Norway should be self sufficient in its workforce otherwise internationals will take Norwegian jobs and more and more Norwegians could be jobbless.
The reason why Norwegians don’t want to be cleaners etc because their wages are on the poverty level. You cannot support a family happily on a cleaners wages. Third world immigrants can take these jobs as they have a different lifestyle than Norwegians. A lot of cultures have large family groups that live together and help each other with food and living – they pool their money together to benefit everyone. Norwegians generally all live in small unit families with no more than two earning persons. This means they would generally have to get higher paid jobs in order to survive.
I think Norway has great potential but the just need to fix up their education system first
Hello L-Jay. I’ve been following your blog for a little while now and very much enjoy your writing. This is a well thought-out and enlightening post with a lot of great information. Thank you for that. I’m not planning to move to Norway, but I am visiting a friend over there this summer for about a month.
I have a question about something you mentioned, that living in Norway is hard on diabetic diets. Can you expand on it a little bit? I’m not diabetic, but I do tend to eat along those lines for other medical reasons.
Thanks again.
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from L-Jay:
It is hard on your wallet, time, quality and variety for diabetics.
Food is not cheap in Norway, especially good fresh food. The vegetable selections are very limited. They may have five varieties of peppers, apples, tomatoes and potatoes but many other ‘normal Western’ fresh veg is rarely seen. They don’t have pumpkins except at Halloween for carving. You can find them sometimes in Oslo and bigger cities but pumpkin is not really seen as something you eat but decorate or use for pig food. It’s hard to get alfalfa, water cress, melon dew, fresh corn as it is normally pre-cooked and put in a plastic wrap, paw paw, – no year round supply of fresh strawberries or mandarins or radishes or sweet potato, including many many other fresh stuff. Many of these fruits and vegies are seasonal and so when you are used to getting them all year round (living in the US/AUS/UK) there can be a big slump in your diet. I believe food makes you happy and in the Winters the selections and quality are very poor and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was one of the causing effects of depression.
In Oslo we would always have to go to the immigrant stores to buy my usual foods as Norway doesn’t have a culture of eating many foods. I think half the problem is that the import costs and the travel time makes the fresh food very poor and people just don’t want to buy it. Usually cellery is often limp and yellow-white, mangos have been picked too early and ripen poorly, spring onions are often waterlogged or yellowing etc – but in the times that these foods are good quality (which is usually Summer) we are in heaven! We load up on these foods because we know that any time soon the quality will take a huge dive.
In most supermarkets there is one little section for dry health foods – but expensive of course. it’s hard to get good wild rice and good lentils. Going to immigrant stores is better for these types of items. For diabetics a lot of the time you have to go to a health food store to buy what you need which has outrageous prices. Just a 50g sugar-free chocolate bar can set you back kr.30 (US$6.00). You certainly have a hard time eating out. A lot of food, especially traditional, has loads of cream or fatty meat – cream cake, lamb in cabbage, reindeer stew etc – and it is very hard to find vegie restaurants if you aren’t in one of the four bigger cities.
When we lived in Oslo we had to travel to five different shopping districts to get an almost normal variety of the food I was used to eating in the UK and AUS. So it can be done. The hard thing is convincing Norwegians that the quality and variety is no where to the standard of the rest of the western world. They are just too used to dealing with limited variety and quality. They will never believe you unless they live there.
One time I cooked a dinner for my parent-in-laws. I brought up a pumpkin from Oslo (as it was October). Farfar said it was the strangest food he had every eaten!
I agree with most of what is said in the article. I however choose not to be as diplomatic about it.
I am extremely dissapointed in Norway and its people. I moved to Norway from the States to marry a Norwegian. I love my husband very much and that is the only reason I am still here. I wish I would have never given up my job, house, friends, children, grandchildren to move here. Luckily we do not plan to live here after he retires. I have a dual nationality. Belgian and American. I was born in Belgium and at age 18 moved to the States. Thankfully I can go visit my family in Belgium more often now. (As soon as you land in Denmark things change for the better) This is the second time around for me to give up my culture for a new one. Even so I was younger moving to the States, I was totally excepted and even admired for being a foreigner. Norway is beautiful but so is Montana and other parts of the US. What bothers me the most of Norway is that everything is so mediocre. Healthcare stinks. You wait min 3 weeks for a Dr appointment (House Dr who only knows the basic sicknesses) 3-10 weeks for a test after that, 2 weeks for a result. If negative you start over again with 3 weeks for Dr etc etc. I am on month 6 for a diagnoses of what I think is a trigger finger and month 3 with a torn menescus in my knee. I would do anything to have my insurance back from the States . If your main goal is to have children and a boat or hytte go ahead risk everything you have to move here. Expect to never be excepted as an equal or be stimulated again in art, food, friendship, job etc.
As for knowing the language. I took my 300 hours and passed level 3 in Norwegian. How much good it did for me is questionable. Your neighbours do not talk to you and so many dialects are spoken that you cannot understand them anyway.
I realize I am being extremely negative, even my friends (also foreigners)have noticed the difference in me since my arrival 2 years ago. Please if you consider moving to Norway DO NOT GIVE EVERYTHING UP IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY. Finally, I want to say. I have lived in Europe, Afrika and the States and honestly can say that Norway and its people have depressed me more than any other nation in the world.
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from L-Jay:
This happens to a lot of people who move to Norway. It is especially hard when you moved to Norway because of a Norwegian spouse. You want to love the country that your spouse is from because it is a part of who they are but at the same time it is very hard to ‘get-with’ the country. Giving up everything to move to Norway is a huge risk – it is certainly not like moving to another English-speaking country.
I think you have to have a certain type of outlook to be able to be an immigrant in Norway. Me – I like being on my own a lot. I don’t need to talk and interact with people to be happy – I enjoy my own company. This is one of the main personal traits that I have that has certainly enabled me to survive Norway. I’ve actually had a more peaceful life not being able to listen to everything. I hear Norwegians talking around me but it’s like background noise as I don’t understand them and so can tune out. One the bus, at the shops, everywhere I get to be in my own little world. Although, when someone does address me I usually have to get them to repeat it as I wasn’t listening the first time…lol. But this doesn’t bother me. I’ve survived also because my line of work, in the Arts, keeps me in contact with many people. I teach dance classes and exercise classes several times a week – all in English. I took a uni course last semester because I felt I needed some mental stimulation. (Norwegians can talk English but only very basic and don’t have the capacity to discuss deep intellectual/philosophical ideas – or most likely they don’t want to…lol).
I’ve found that I needed to make peace with my new country. It was difficult and sometimes I just wanted to fight it but when I’m at my best I love Norway. Because everyone is different, there are many different lengths immigrants have to go to to embrace Norway. Some lengths are short and others too long. I’m lucky that my lengths are shorter than others.
Cecilie, if you have that long a wait for a doctors appointment, you are not using the marketplace right. Or live in an extremly isolated location.
You need to go to Min Fastlege, at https://tjenester.nav.no/minfastlege/innbygger/visloginside.do and change to a physican which has lees patients on his list. And talk to your friends and family about their doctors to see who is good and quick. Its supposed to be a marketplace, if you have long waits, use someone else.
Jan that’s part of the problem. If a doctor has less patients on his list it’s probably for a reason.
Another issue I’ve encountered in Norway myself is that most doctors aren’t even Norwegian, at least that I’ve seen. Not to insult the country, but it imports 300 foreign doctors every year. 300 foreigners coming to the country as MDs is quite a large number for a population of only around 5 million people. Some of the foreigners are ok, the Danish doctor we see most frequently is a great guy who seems to really know his stuff. However I’ve seen 1 too many “turkish immigrants with sheep dung on his shoes” (my wording) for my taste. In the states an MD is expected to look organized, clean, professional and above all like he has good hygiene. While I can appreciate Norways more lax attitude in many aspects, not all jobs should be treated like a grocery hauling job for a college kid. If I were “doomed” to live out the rest of my life in Norway medical care would be one of my primary concerns.
Just wanted to point out that of course you should learn Norwegian to live in Norway. Should the Norwegians living in their native country adapt to you, the foreigner who speaks English and really never have to learn a second language because “everyone” speaks it? If I go to the US, I don’t expect the people around me to understand Norwegian or talking that to me. (Just forget the fact that Norwegian is not by any means a lingua franca, but that’s not the point.)
I lived 6 months in France. And surprise surprise: they all spoke … French. So I had to learn. I do see the problem with dialects though, but if a non-native speaker tries to converse with me, I strive to speak the written language. (It sounds horrible, but at least you’ll understand
)
And no, Norwegians are not very welcoming. I admit to that. It’s mixed why we’re not, but it’s less about not wanting you, a foreigner around. In Norway we don’t want to bother people, and that too an extreme, so if I came at your doorstep with a cake hinting to come inside to welcome you, I reckon it’s a nice gesture in for instance US or Aus, but here it’s like I’m invading your privacy and I don’t want to be rude!
Also, as mentioned by another commenter, we’re a bit shy. We do know enough English to chat with you, but we’re afraid it’s not good enough. And also, wouldn’t it be rude to talk to you in English when maybe you know some Norwegian? I found it rude while in France if the waiters replied to me in English when I started the conversation in French. Hey! I know French! I want to improve!
One last, but very important note: If you approach them, they will be very happy! If you invite them in for a coffee, or even a meal from your home country, they’ll jump of joy. Because deep in their hearts they are curious about you, they’d like to get to know you, they just don’t know how.
(And of course one can continue arguing that it should be the natives that should greet the newcomers and so on and so on, but that’s really not the culture. The same goes for Norwegian moving to another Norwegian community.)
Great effort from you, writing this post! This will really help a lot of people.
However, I’m pretty sure you’ve made a few mistakes regarding parental leave. You don’t have to have worked for a full year, only 10 months. And the paternal leave benefit is not based on the mother’s salary, each parent’s benefit is based on their own salary. And you can get 100% of your usual salary for 46 weeks paid leave or 80% for 56 weeks.
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from L-Jay:
I will check on some of these but I’ll get Moose to source things for me as this stuff isn’t really thoroughly clear or explained in the English NAV pages compared to the Norwegian.
But here is what is written concerning your three points above (there are different rules for EEA and transitional citizens):
Parental Benefit/Leave:
The below information is from parental benefit from birth – in regards to the fathers payment being subject to the mothers working income:
The below information is from parental quota – in regards to the fathers payment being subject to the mothers working income:
Unemployment Benefit:
They don’t actually say anything in the English section about percentages. But I’ll get Moose to check the Norwegian pages. But in the post it does mention 80% for a year (12 months) which is what you confirmed above.
and..
But as I mentioned, I will check on this. Let me know if the Norwegian pages say things in a different way. Sometimes translations can skew things.
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ok – an update.
I txt Moose to ‘please explain’ coz I was a little dubious too…lol. He just emailed me back:
Thought it best to e-mail this…
Here is an article from VG about the state budget for 2010 where the government wants to enable paternity leave for more fathers:
http://www.vg.no/dinepenger/artikkel.php?artid=575082
I don’t know how it will look in Google Translate, but I’ll point out some highlights:
- the change will only apply to births after 1. July 2010
- The requirement for getting paid paternity leave is still depentent on wether the mother has earnt enough for maternity leave.
- currently, the mother must be working at least 50% position. The change will allow fathers to take paternity leave even if the mother works less.
- Fathers have not had, and still do not have, a system for earning paternity leave “points” completely independent of the mother, although these changes are a step on the way.
- here’s the good bit: Men will get paid leave from their own salary if the mother works at least 75%. If she works less, the paternity leave money will be calculated based on her percentage.
When we said in the post “worked for a full year” we said in regards to the one-time birth money (30 000 kr). For maternity/paternity leave it’s six months, but we never said it wasn’t…
Right, these things are extremely complicated, and your blog post really makes excellent points on its topic – being whether or not you should move to Norway. So these details might not be so important for your target group, but as I’m expecting a baby in August, they are to me. I’m a citizen, by the way.
I have never heard that the father will get paternal benefits based on the mother’s salary. NAV says:
“Er du arbeidstaker, beregnes foreldrepengene som hovedregel etter inntekten du har når du går ut i permisjon.”
In my ears, meaning that the parental benefits are based individually on the income you had when you started your leave. (But not over 6G)
http://www.nav.no/Familie/Svangerskap%2C+fødsel+og+adopsjon/Foreldrepenger+ved+fødsel
However, I think you are confusing the paternal leave father’s quota with EXTRA paternal leave in addition to the quota. In that case, several new criteria have to be met: “When the father will be drawing parental benefit that is NOT paternal quota, it will be a condition that the mother (…)”.
http://www.nav.no/Familie/Svangerskap%2C+fødsel+og+adopsjon/Foreldrepenger+ved+fødsel/Foreldrepenger+ved+fødsel/805368928.cms
Summarized, as I understand it: Normal paternal leave is paid based on his salary, and the normal maternal leave is paid based on her salary. Additional paternal leave is paid NOT based on the mother’s salary, but his benefits are reduced based on the mother’s working hours.
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from L-Jay:
The two quotes I provided in a reply to a comment above came directly from those same pages you have also referenced. The Norwegian version might be more clear on things but because there is an English version, this is where I have referenced my information. (This might be a good example how information isn’t readily available to those who live in Norway and are non-Norwegian speakers.) The English version does say that paternal benefits are based on your income but then it clarifies that it is also based on the mother’s work status (which can be addressed as income). The article on VG says (the link provided above) that getting paternal benefit is based on how many ‘points’ the mother has earnt throughout her working life.
In another VG article (2008) is says (with translation):
Apparently there is only one change since this article was published and that is that the mother has received the right to parental benefit even when working less than 50%. This also effects the father’s right to paternal benefit. But there is still a requirement that the mother has worked and isn’t a stay at home mum, student or on sick leave without pay etc.
I think it is evident that the government needs to make information more clear for normal folk. Also, if there is any language translations available they should be clear and precise. Most importantly, they should be as complete as the Norwegian language pages (I often find discrepancies on UDI.)
I think we missed each other because I don’t see the mother’s work status as income.
I know the mother has to work approximately full-time, but it doesn’t matter how much she earns working full-time when the paternal benefit is calculated.
A funny note regarding the poor English pages at NAV: You can see draft comments like “[very unclear source!]” and “link to card concerning paternal quota sheet”.
I take exception to your section on the HDI Standard of Living. But first, let me point out that I am an American from the Mid-Atlantic region and I am about to hit my sixth full year of living in Østfold, Norway with my native Norwegian husband.
First off, meat has been easily come by in all the places I’ve been to. There is so much fresh meat that I often don’t bother buying it until it goes on sale from being overstocked. All meat that has been frozen must be marked as such, so I always know what I’m getting. There is even a pig farm over in Vestfold that produces some of the nicest sausages I’ve ever had.
“It is extremely hard to buy fresh lamb out of season. It is very hard to find fresh roast-cut meat such as lamb, beef or chicken.” If it’s out of season…it’s out of season. I would think that to be self-evident. Also…this roast beef sandwich I am eating right now is delicious.
“They don’t have pumpkins except at Halloween for carving…etc, etc, etc” That’s not true in all locales. Last fall, I bought 15 kilos of pick-your-own pie pumpkins, soup squashes, and spaghetti sqashes for a pittance. Fresh corn is also pick-your-own and I still have a few kilos left in the freezer. I routinely buy beautifully chubby sweet potatoes. I have a pantry with four kinds of dried lentils in it and seven different types of dried beans (yes, I got up and counted them).
Most of the vegetable in my pantry and fridge are organic, local, or both. And, speaking as someone with insulin resistance, I have been having no problems finding foods and products with diabetics in mind.
I can procure ethnic groceries from one of four establishments in my small town of about 40,000 people. I worked in a REAL Indian restaurant and catering business back in the US, so I can vouch for the authenticity of the ethnic restaurants in the area where I live now. You can get truly authentic food from them if you talk to your waiter or the owner of the place. Just be ready for the spicy burn of the real deal.
I am a fairly hardcore foodie compared to the Norwegians I know. I have approximately 2 meters of shelf space devoted to cookbooks…from 30 years worth of the venerable Southern Living Annual books to Alton Brown’s delightful volumes to little regional cookbooks put out by beekeeping clubs, church groups, ladies’ leagues, and booster clubs. I have never been disappointed by the quality of ingredients available on Norway. Never. Sometimes there are items that are hard to find, but with some patience they can be found. There is nothing that I feel that I cannot make because the ingrdients are unavailable.
On the subject of book…they are easily obtained from the US-based Amazon.com for a very reasonable shipping fee, though it is more economical to bundle your book orders together to get the best price. And they are exempt from customs duty.
Now…I grew up in a town of about 50,000 people and lived there right up until I moved to Norway. I find that having moved to a Norwegian town that is slightly smaller, there are more interesting and enriching things to do here in a Norwegian small town. If someone is the sort who enjoys sitting like a zombie in the darkness of a movie theater every weekend, then perhaps they will find it dull. Their loss….although the movie theater in this town is pretty darned nice, too.
I have loved your blog up until now, but the generalization of those statements really irked me. It is a delight to be a homemaker and a foodie in Norway. We may live on a very modest income, but we eat a wide variety of delicious meals made from quality ingredients.
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from L-Jay:
If you read the post I have written : Consider Norway as a bare minimum English or American country town with 50,000 people and you will get a good idea of the conveniences, services and offers.
You just mentioned that you are from an American small town so this is likely one of the reasons why you don’t see a difference between your life in the US and Norway. However, when you come from a major city like London, Sydney or New York there is a considerable difference between the quality and variety of food.
For example, in Australia (the cities) we can get strawberries all year round, pumpkins all year round, fresh lamb all year round – in fact, we can get any cut of meat of any regular food animal we want all year round – no matter the season, no matter the quantity. You don’t have to go to a farm to get it – just your local butcher. You can certainly not do that in Norway – anywhere. So for people who are used to that convenience of eating what they want when they want it, will have a harder time than those that are used to living in smaller towns and making do with what is only on offer. A lot of the inconvenience of food in Norway is that you might be able to find it but you have to search, travel and pay through the nose to get it.
Also, you personally have lived here for six years and have worked in the restaurant industry so it is more likely that you know how to source things and get restaurants to serve you ‘real’ Indian food. It seems like you have had good help from a Norwegian that has showed you the ropes on how to live in Norway. This is why I mentioned that having Norwegian family is very important. There are so many things that I don’t know about living in Norway and I am slowly learning them because of my family and when I do life becomes a little easier. For example, I just learnt from you that meat that has been frozen has to say so on the pack. I never knew this. Little bits of information like this usually can only be known if someone tells you. An immigrant who has no one to tell them these things will likely never know half the things that will make life easier for them. I’ve always said that if you learn to live like a Norwegian you will enjoy Norway more.
You have only mentioned food – and I’m sure not every city in Norway has the same variety of local produce as you do – in fact, I know that all of Northern Norway cannot grow sun crops like corn and pumpkin in huge amounts so people can pick-their-own. Just because your area does it doesn’t mean the rest of Norway does. (Are you generalising too?) Your circumstance is unique and very different from a lot of immigrants who come from a big city with all the conveniences who don’t speak Norwegian. Those who don’t have Norwegian family will find it very difficult for at least the first two years of living in Norway with this stuff.
Lastly, you are saying I’m generalising – I don’t see the problem. Generalising serves a purpose in giving an overview and this was very clearly stated in the post. I clearly mentioned that I cannot talk about every single city and that there are always exceptions. I think you should have made a positive contribution by adding what your area of Norway is like rather than trying to put down what I have said.
I also suggest you use Amazon.co.uk which is cheaper in shipping than the US Amazon. Even still play.com is generally cheaper than both and has free shipping.
Last point first: I buy a ridiculous number of books a year and I’ve found that while the shipping is often less from Amazon.co.uk, the books themselves are much pricier. Overall, I’ve gotten a far greater cost savings on books+shipping from US Amazon. The only thing I buy from the UK site are DVDs and video games because they’re PAL encoded. Thank you for the tip about play.com and I will look into it, but they don’t really seem to carry the sort of books I like to buy.
Also, forgive my unintentionally crabby tone earlier…it’s been a rough few days and I apologize.
As for my restaurant experience, I was the hostess and didn’t have much to do with the kitchen. The way I have sourced my food here is purely from observation and inquiry. And important question to ask oneself is: where do the other immigrants shop? They often operate on a smaller budget than ‘conventional’ Norwegian families and have a need for non-standard ingredients.
The reason I mainly mentioned food it that it was the only thing I saw that didn’t match my experiences. It takes a certain kind of person to move to Norway and make it work.
Norwegians are a wonderful people and speak a great deal about social progress, equality, and environmental stewardship. The trouble is, that’s sometimes all the do: talk about it. And if you don’t turn a blind eye to the discontinuity between theory and reality, you’ll either be very politely invited to stuff it or you will be pointedly ignored.
On the other hand, I am much happier here than I was in the US. I find that it is markedly less stressful and the easygoing attitude here suits me.
I think a great deal of the unhappiness that I’ve seen among some of our fellow immigrants is based on their expectation that Norwegians take part in the cult of instant gratification that seems to have permeated Western society. Strawberries have a growing season and ewes give birth at certain times of the year, so saying “I want it now!” isn’t going to do anything to change it.
I think everybody is guilty of generalizing at times, but that is mostly because we are human and we draw on our own experiences with the expectation that others can relate to them.
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from L-Jay:
I am in complete agreeance with you and I am also much happier in Norway than any other place I have lived. I was so used to buying whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, that not being able to do that when I moved to Norway was one of my culture shocks. It took me a while to live with the seasons instead of against them. I’ve actually posted about how wonderful it is to live seasonally and the anticipation for next seasons produce makes you appreciate foods that much more in A Seasonal Life. I’ve been reading a lot about organic farming lately and I’ve found out that Norway has 2700 organic farms – that’s one farm per 2000 people. This is very encouraging because soon we are going to start experimenting growing heirloom vegies in an Arctic hoop house. Fingers crossed.
This post is actually the first of a two-post series. The second will be posted next week and is along the lines of ‘Why you would want to live in Norway’. Of course, it will be all the positives that I think will encourage people to choose to move to Norway. You are most welcome to comment
This reminds me so much of my experience moving to Paris from the US. It’s not as easy or rosy as people expect it to be. And the reverse–many Europeans think America just must be this wonderful, easy place to live based on TV and movies, and find out it’s not when they move here. (Though we do have better sales!)
Thank you for posting this! It’s always interesting to find out some of the gritty side. Kudos to you for going through all of it. I know, from experience, how tough it is to move to a new country. I enjoy reading about your life!
Take care!
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from L-Jay:
Vær så god.
I enjoy reading your blog. I will recommend this article specifically to my friends who are planning to go to Norway and work as health practitioners… They have studied the norsk language already… but they still need to find someone to converse to so they can practice… =)
i think many of these generalizations can be made for anybody moving to any country these days. i find that folks who have never tried to move from one country to another often have mistaken notions of how the grass is greener elsewhere. stable family, finances, and realistic expectations based on reliable research are all practical notions for anyone moving anywhere. thanks, l-jay!
I always enjoy reading your posts, and I have to say that this was one of my all time favorites. You covered all the bases, and provided source links for people to do their own research which is great. Norway is a beautiful land with amazing people, but I would certainly agree with you, the transition can be hard.
not to mention the lack of fresh fruits and veggies.
I moved from Southern California to Bergen, and the winter weather alone was quite enough of a shock
And I could not even begin to imagine what moving to Norway would be like without a good Norwegian Family to help with the transition.
I know that this blog will help open the eyes of many people, great job!
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from L-Jay:
Tusen takk
I appreciate your post about the practical challenges. I am, unfortunately, an individual (without a family) looking to move to Norway. I am used to living in extremely simple conditions, but my question is, do you think it is possible to get a very basic job (minimum wage) in Bergen without a bachelor’s degree? I am thinking about sharing a flat with some young Norwegian friends and I’m hoping this will help lower the cost instead of renting a flat on my own.
Visa is not currently an issue, and I can speak fluent Norwegian.
Would love to hear what you think. As far as skill level – I can do any dirty work available, customer service, and would be happy to intern a local photographer (I studied photography at uni, although did not bother getting a degree).
Do you have any advice or thoughts? Am I insane for trying?
All I really need is a bed, a bathroom, and a little food to stay happy. It would be encouraging to know that it’s possible, at least, to survive in Norway, or that others have tried and succeeded on their own?
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from L-Jay:
I think you have a great chance surviving Norway since you speak the language fluently and you already have Norwegian friends. Your language skills will up-grade your job options too. I regularly see photography jobs with newspapers, magazines and portrait studios. If you take up a Summer job as a photographer for a newspaper it will give you a good head start. (Organise a portfolio of your work to show.) Also, if you are younger it is usually easier to get jobs at hotels, supermarkets or in other customer service. Tour guiding is very good for people who know more than two languages – German, Spanish, Japanese as well as English. You would be moving to the second biggest city in Norway so more jobs are on offer.
But if you want a career in Norway (because you want to stay) it is best to take part-time or Summer jobs to get your foot in the door and then up-grade when you can. Or you might be lucky and snap up a good job straight away with your language skills.
Good luck
I generally enjoy this blog, as it strikes me as more balanced than most immigrants-in-Norway blogs I’ve come across. This post is no exception (though I have a couple of objections).
Some of these things will be true for moving to any country, some are specific to Norway. They’re all useful to be aware of, if you’re moving here, or if you’re planning to import a Canadian, as I’m planning to. Not that the post covered any new ground, to me, but it summed many things up nicely in one place.
Of course, I’ll still have to nitpick.
If you’re comparing the selection of food in Sydney to that of a population 50 000 town here, you’re not being entirely fair, especially if the selection compares to a 50 000 town in enter-country-here. If you move from a small town in the US to a small town here, and you don’t notice much of a change in selection, I’d attribute the lack of selection to it being a small town, rather than to it being a Norwegian town. Of course, this will vary from town to town here as well.
There was also a bit about mental health that I don’t think adds up. They don’t hand it out willy-nilly , but you can get benefits if you have (crippling) depression. It’s going to take a while though, I’d assume.
Hopefully I don’t come off as too much of a defensive ass.
I’d make a positive contribution by adding what my area of Norway is like, but I’ve lived here all my life and have probably gone blind to its disadvantages. Plus the reply is already growing at an alarming rate.
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from L-Jay:
Ah yes, when I used a place like Sydney compared to a small town in Norway (even Oslo) I was trying to point out several ideas. But one of them is – I hoped that readers would understand that even though Norway is a Western country it doesn’t mean it has the same conveniences, quality and varieties as other western countries in the world. This lesson alone was hard for me to learn. I had read all about Norway’s leadership in human rights and equal rights and environmental practises, that I just thought the quality and available food would be the same or even better than Australia…lol. It didn’t matter to me that Norway was small I expected it to be better with food than Australia just because of its location. I actually thought I would be in food paradise because Norway was so close to the rest of Europe. In Oz I loved all the authentic Italian, Spanish and French restaurants and imported foods, and I thought that Norway would have so much more, so much better and so much more ‘authentic’ European foods. It seemed strange to me that a country could be so close to great food and yet Australia (at the other end of the world) had more. I soon realised it was important to have immigrants if you wanted a great variety of food in your country. If Australia didn’t have immigrants we’d still all be eating shepherds pie and bangers and mash.
The one thing that is odd is the imbalance of technology to food. Norway is so advanced in technology – everyone uses it for daily life (even farmors txts us) – Norway is way beyond Australia – at least 20 years…lol. But it is certainly 20 years behind Australia in food. Though I can see recently how Norway is starting to change it’s idea about food from all the Norwegian food shows on TV and I just mentioned in another reply that I’ve discovered Norway has 2700 organic farms (that’s 1 farm per 2000 people).
Seeing skrinks though doesn’t seem to be a Norwegian thing to do. It would be amazingly hard for a non-Norwegian speaker to use this type of service. I found it hard when I was pregnant communicating in English with a GP but telling someone all your thoughts and feelings who doesn’t know your language would be a greater challenge. I came across doctors who wouldn’t speak English to me and so I had to bring Moose along to translate – would hate to do that if I was seeing a shrink. I wouldn’t be able to complain about him (Moose, I mean).
Actually, when I mentioned to my doctor one time that I was very low and felt suffocated by the darkness he asked me if I wanted some pills…lol. But I did find out that there was a service for women for post-natal depression at the hospital. About shrinks, as an immigrant, I don’t know anything about them – I don’t even know the name for shrink in Norwegian. I guess you would get referred by your GP?
The imbalance between tech and food might be partially down to one being seen as a necessity and the other more of a luxury. Or maybe that’s just me.
And you’ll have to get a referral from your GP, yes.
I hadn’t thought about whether it was un-Norwegian or not until now. Maybe it is, I guess we’re generally not a people comfortable with opening up to strangers. I certainly felt very uncomfortable with it for a long while, and mine was a very alright guy.
Culturally, Norway has been a country where self-sufficinecy in food has been a given. Not in an idology way. Just that the distances are so long, the geography so creative, that being able to provide your own food was a precondition for existing in most rural locations.
Prior to modern transport, shipping in food hasn’t been much of an option.
What people tend to forget is how recently Norway industrialized, especially in the North. The whole idea of a variety of foods being available and thinking of food as something…importable is actually quite new culturally.
I mean, how many people still supplement their food with a bit of self-provided fish, grouse, potato etc?
This whole discussion is a great read! My family lived in South America for about 3 years when I was younger, and while it is the best way to truly experience any country (to actually live there, as opposed to visiting), it is hard. It’s hard on people, it’s hard on children, it changes you in ways that you don’t realize ahead of time, and there is no excuse for not learning the bad as well as the good that you can expect from the proposed move. Evaluating a prospective move to another country/culture really has to be about “managing expectations!!”
What a great resource – thank you for posting, L Jay: both the initial post and the thoughtful replies.
Thank you L-Jay for providing an insight for those who are considering moving to Norway without knowing what it is like here yet.
I was very fortunate to move to Bergen with a norwegian fiance who has a very supportive family who live locally to us.
I find my neighbours to be very friendly. I live in a block of flats with mostly retired residents, I was pregnant when I moved to Norway and now have a 7 month old daughter who my neighbours love to coo over, she is a great conversation starter!
Learning to live with the seasons is one big change from living in the UK. Trying to find reasonably priced parsnips for christmas dinner was my main food surprise. I would have thought, before I moved here, that parsnips would be grown in Norway. My norwegian family had never tried them before!
There is a central resource for foreign language websites:
http://www.bazar.deichman.no/
As you can see there is very limited information online in other languages!
I look forward to reading the second part of this, as there are lots of positive things about living in Norway. But, if you are considering immigration, you really need to know both sides to make an informed decision.
As a Norwegian, I understand that we may come across as unfriendly and depressing. I think that the best way to make friends in Norway, is to volunteer in organizations (like Red-Cross), join a sports club and work in bars. That is the door-opener to a great social life, because we are most social when we are drunk, active or working. Or a combination of all. And I have to say that one of the reasons we may seem cold and distant, is because many people are afraid their english isn’t good enough, and that they will seem silly. But it is very charming when immigrants try their best to learn norwegian;)
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from L-Jay:
Well said. I think the first thing to successful living as an immigrant in Norway is to learn about the culture and character of Norwegians. Plus it’s fun too
“I think that the best way to make friends in Norway, is to volunteer in organizations (like Red-Cross), join a sports club and work in bars. That is the door-opener to a great social life, because we are most social when we are drunk, active or working. Or a combination of all.”
That’s a great tip. Norwegians generally won’t approach you just out of thin air unless they have some form of excuse, like working alongside you, drinking with you or you’re both trying your best to stick a round object in a larger rectangular one with a net.
Don’t worry, it’s not you, we don’t talk to each other either, unless we’re in one of the above mentioned situations.
Excellent post! I’ve been looking at a lot of message boards and blogs as part of preparing to move over in August and this post was great – balanced but making the point of how hard it can be.
Thanks for the taking the time to post this.
DN
Thanks for another good read.
When I was studying in Tromsø i lived next to a dutch student. And he was comenting on how everyone he met was so nice and friendly. So i told him most people in Norway will smile and be polite even if they don’t like you(or are indifferent). We’re often dishonest in the way we treat other people because we don’t want them to get sad. I wish we were more honest,it would be easier to notice how people feel about you.
You said earlier that many norwegians aren’t capable of Advanced english conversations, but i think we’re doing pretty damn good considering it’s our second language
I just discovered your blog via a link on facebook. I think you have done a huge service to both people in the EU thinking to pick up and move here and to the Norwegian population who has to deal with the immigrants with misconceptions.
You wrote, “You need to know how to physically look after your health because health services are very minimal.”
I just wanted to point out that – having been here for 17 years – I am impressed with the health services here. While I am extremely concerned about growing old in this country, one has to take into consideration the relative health care available in other countries. Not everyone – even in the US – access to satisfactory health care. Or even defines it remotely similarly.
As an unemployed, recent college graduate, my first child would have never been brought to term in the US. I received extraordinary prenatal care (including surgery) in Norway that I would not have received “at home”. If I had found a private physician to do the surgery, I would still be paying off the 5 month hospital stay. While we did resort to private health care once because we were languishing on a waiting list for a non-emergency procedure for one of our children, overall I have been thankful for the Norwegian health care system (and the private alternatives).
My personal experience with the mental health care in Norway has been as varied as my experience with mental health care practitioners in the US. I believe when it comes to emotional issues like health care, generalizations will always be strongly biased by anecdotal information.
Thank you for a lovely blog!
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from L-Jay:
It is interesting about the Health Care. I came from a country that has a good public health care system and so when I compare it to Norway I find that Norway doesn’t have as many available services and level of care. My one year old was turned away from the general emergency clinic at the hospital one afternoon a year ago just because they said we should see our regular doctor – they didn’t even look at her condition. (GPs generally close by 4pm on weekdays and are closed over the week end. As it was a friday afternoon we would have to wait nearly three days to be seen). That night my daughter had seizures and stopped breathing and we had to call for an ambulance. In Australia, if you go to the emergency clinic at the hospital you are never turned away, especially children. This is a rule they have in the Australian health system mainly to cover themselves but it means that you can always see a doctor if you need to. There might be a long wait but you are guaranteed to get seen by a doctor even in the middle of the night.
The health care is good here in Norway but also the same as Australia. However, in some cities in Norway they don’t even have hospitals – Alta for instance doesn’t have one and many people have to get flown to Hammafest or Tromsø in an emergency. This is, of course, because of population. So if you have health problems you are very restricted to which city to live unless you want to go on road or plane trips for your hospital appointments. So I said… ‘You need to know how to physically look after your health because health services are very minimal’ – it is very wise to look after your health otherwise you won’t just have health problems but travel problems too.
I’m with L-Jay. Coming from America I can certainly say the level of healthcare in Norway is no where near the level the Norwegians perceive it to be. I guess maybe America gets a bad rep for healthcare because no everyone has health insurance but the quality of healthcare in the U.S. is 2nd to none. Expensive yes, but you get what you pay for. Many times Norwegians have asked me about the healthcare in Norway as if they expect me to be thrilled to finally be in a country with technology or something. Being as how my 2nd child was born in Norway and my 1st in the U.S. I had a very unique opportunity to evaluate and compare the 2 systems in a very intricate way. There is simply no comparison. The nurses in Flekkfjord where very nice but the level of technology and accommodation in Norwegian healthcare facilities isn’t even comparable to the U.S. When we went to our first sonogram at a Norwegian hospital I thought the guy was using one of those sonic fish locators that red necks use to scan lake bottoms for fish lol. Before coming over all my in-laws talked about was the quality of the healthcare, all the advanced technology, etc. There is alot of misconception in Norway about how its healthcare stacks up to other nations. The same could be said about many things though, including the quality of the education system, etc. It seems Norwegians only get the negative news about other countries/cultures and gauge their own standards by that nations negative aspects only.
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from L-Jay:
I took my daughter Lilu to my dentist because she knocked her tooth. The dentist refused to see her and said all children must go through the public dentistries. Only adults go to private dentistries. I told him that I was willing to pay full price but he still declined…lol.
The education system – yes, well, tat will be a hairy post coming up
Ugh that just sucks LJay. I think that sort of attitude is why I could never call Norway home. In America a dentist would never turn away a child in pain. In my experience abroad neither would a doctor in the UK.
I got really hot one night when we took my daughter to the doctor. My daughter was having trouble breathing from sucking down some liquid medicine in her air tube. She couldn’t catch her breath (just gurgled) so we rushed her over to the ER and the doctor wanted to give us some kind of interview through the exterior intercom instead of actually taking a look at my daughter. In the states a medical doctor would never make a parent stand outside in the freezing cold at 3 am in the morning with a child that is having breathing complications. You factor instances like that in with their lack of concern for the handicapped/pregnant/etc, I guess with as much as I’ve heard my Norwegian in-laws (among other Norwegians) complain about a lack of humanitarian concern by other nations like the US/UK I had expected the Norwegians to have actually mastered the art of having some humanitarian concern for their fellow man sitting right next to them.
Hi, and thanks for this article. I think you did a great job -as did the commentators- of pointing out the differences and nuances of living in Norway versus another foreign country. I lived in several foreign countries before moving to Norway and it was one of the most difficult moves I ever had. I was lucky to have a Norwegian samboer and family not too far away, and that aided in so much of the transition. Plus my Norwegian was passable before moving to the country. But I was never able to get over how much of what I find important in life – food, culture, arts – I was missing. I never felt I fit in. It was exhausting always playing the role of “foreigner”. Going out felt like such a hassle. I started to measure offers to do things based on how long it would take to get there/cost to get there/how cold or wet I would be by the time I got there. The freezing winds messed with my complexion and killed even the nicest of ‘summer’ days. A jacket doesn’t do much to protect one’s facial skin from the elements and it could be one of the reasons Norwegian women have such severe lines after around age 35 (either that or vacations to the south!). I constantly felt that windburned feeling of just getting off a chair-lift.
I love restaurants and eating out, but very rarely felt satisfied or challenged in Norway. I would treat myself to a dinner out, and more often than not feel disappointed in the food and the cost. I’d walk by the seriously expensive and interesting restaurants and feel cut-off from that experience because the cost was simply too high (not for my wallet, but for my sense of right v. wrong financially-speaking).
I missed cutting edge cinema,and cultural activities/festivals that occur from the ground-up, rather than being mass-organized by the chamber or business sector or whatever. Not a lot felt authentic.
So many things I liked about Norway were/are theoretical in nature. Except paying income taxes – that has got to be the best tax system I have ever encountered. I didn’t find the taxes to be all that high (I paid 36% on my job earning 435k per year) and even got 10% back the first 2 years based on being a foreigner. The skatt list is fun too – the transparency in government is refreshing. That said, I love the idea of Norway, but living in it was just so hard.
I really enjoy scintillating conversation, but found the most conversation I was able to take part in occurred when people were fairly boozed up. I’m not a binge-drinker and felt left-out from many social activities because of that fact. I am also fairly independent, and don’t mind being by myself (and enjoy it usually as well) but even I felt like I couldn’t have a truly engaging, passionate conversation with the people I met and came to consider friends (after a lengthy waiting period, which I am ok with). I’ve known so many vibrant Norwegians living outside of Norway, but I felt that the only ones that were remotely like that IN Norway had actually spent quite some time living abroad. I know how critical that sounds, and it feels unfair just writing it, but it is truly how it felt. Provincial.
Shopping is also not that great of a sport, and while that was good on the pocketbook, I missed stores that offer couture on discount (you know the type!), great shoes, and had different styles. Most stores sell similar items for the same prices. Shopping was occasionally pleasurable but not so much.
I wanted to volunteer to meet more people but found there to be no groups that were geared towards immigrants or expats. So I started a group, and it has been very successful, and it’s still going even though I have taken leave from Norway since last Autumn. But the point is there is so little available that anyone, even I, could start something and have it work out. If that makes sense?
I don’t know, something about reading your post is bringing up strong feelings about how difficult my time in Norway felt and how much of a hassle everything was to do. Everything felt so much easier in other parts of Europe where I lived.
Apologies for the long response. Thanks again for your piece!
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from L-Jay:
There is a lot that you have written that I know so well. Norway is great but there are a lot of things about the life that are un-inspiring. However, Norway has certainly made me take control of my life. Anything that I do now is because I made it happen, just like how you started a group. If you are a self starter and pro-active then I think Norway can be a little easier. In a lot of communities in Norway, if you want something you have to do it yourself. This is how many businesses have started (and one of the reasons why business aren’t as good as other places because no one is properly trained). But I’ve come to appreciate local businesses in Norway. Most of them started by people just like us who wanted something that the community didn’t offer and set about trying to offer it. Everyone that I know here in Tromsø who teaches dancing first found themselves wanting to learn dance but there were no teachers around, so they started a dance group and grew from there.
It seems Norway is 20 years behind because of the small and thin spread of population. I think it will be a while before all the conveniences of other western countries can be established here. I’m sure these changes will come with an increase in ‘multi-culturalism’ and ‘globalisation’.
If you think that is hard to live in Norway,you should try Iceland !!! I lived there for two years and after that Norway seem to be like paradise
My point is that from bad there is worse. Love your post and best wishes!
I AM BASHAR FROM AFGHANISTAN BUT LIVING IN PAKISTAN I AM REALLY POOR I WANT TO BE NORWAGIN I DONT HAVE ANY HELPER I AM SINGLE I ACNA SPEAKE ENGLISH,PERSON,PASHTO,I AM REALLY POOR I WANT TI COM THIER FOR THE WORK I DONT HAVE ANY HELPER
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from L-Jay:
The only way you can come to Norway is through family, work or asylum. Based on the information you provided, it will be very unlikely you will get to reside and work in Norway.
Hei, i just moved back to the us after been living in norway for over 35 years, and i can tell you that is no dance on roses living in the us. i just whent on a web site to see how much the us own the world, and right know every man/ girls in the us own the world over $ 41000,00 how can that happen? when i tried to googel the same for norway, i cant find the same amont. but i love us and norway, but i still think its better living in norway,
jon
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from L-Jay:
You wrote below to immigrants in Norway: ‘go back home, if you cant take it. the pepole living ther dont complain’ – it is interesting that you are an immigrant now complaining.
“I’ve known so many vibrant Norwegians living outside of Norway, but I felt that the only ones that were remotely like that IN Norway had actually spent quite some time living abroad. I know how critical that sounds, and it feels unfair just writing it, but it is truly how it felt.”
I agree with the comment made above and would apply it to any nationality. People that have lived abroad (for more than a year or two) or are currently living abroad are just different. They are a global tribe who are invariable more interesting to talk to because they can discuss a topic from multiple perspectives. The act of having lived abroad is vaguely equivalent to having a liberal arts degree in that it teaches you how to think for yourself. So, following this logic, of course better educated people are more interesting to talk to!
This blog is a cut above because it chooses to look at life from “the glass is half-full” perspective. And let’s face it, this is easier said than done for most of us.
Takk L-Jay! Please, please keep up the good work.
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from L-Jay:
Vær så god.
Australians gain a great sense of achievement when they live abroad as it is such a big effort to do so. However, going to another country is just normal life to a Norwegian – there are even careers in Norway where it is expected that you train overseas (such as medicine, theatre and film). It is much easier for Europeans to jump from country to country because of EU/EEA agreements but Norwegians never seem to be as wild in Europe as they are in Australia. (I’ve known some Norwegians in Oz, UK, Finland and Italy.) I also find that Norwegians don’t boast as much about living abroad as Australians do.
(I hope the scenery pictures fills the cup for our readers
)
Hi, found your site very informative as I am planning to move there in July to join my partner and son who went back in Feb. However, I am concerned about the chances of getting a family immigration Visa from UDI for 2 reasons. The first is the subsistence requirement. Whilst we have a place to live for free, my partner obviously has not had an income for 12 months as our son is only 9 months old and she just returned in Feb. Do you know how lenient the UDI are in this regard? I assume the strict rules are to stop “marriages of convenience” from low skilled foreigners from suspect countries and people abusing the system and using welfare. Now we are certainly genuine, so I am hoping that the UDI will make an exception under humanitarian grounds. The second is that I have 1 criminal conviction from 2004, but it did not result in any prison time and was not drug or violence related. Do you have any idea on how strict they are in this regard? Information is virtually non-existant in this regard. I will be heading there as a visitor and applying within the country, as I do not wish to wait 6 months for approval waiting in Australia, due to the fact that our familry are apart.
Other than that, really appreciated the comments. It has helped me to prepare for the worst, so to speak. Cold does not bother me, as I detest the heat. Australian summers are intolerable! But like you, I enjoy my own company so will not find the lack of social inclusion to be much of a detriment and I am yearning for a slower, quieter lifestyle and think Norway will be a good match.
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from L-Jay:
Because of your son you will have very good chances because of humanitarian grounds but if they dout you they might ask for a paternity test. But if your partner agrees that you are the father then it is fine. You will need to prove though you are romantically attached. This is called ‘co-habitant’. You will need to prove that you have lived together for at least two years. If she can’t support you, this is a problem. But if you can prove that you have a good chance of getting a job in Norway, like you have a degree or masters, add it into your application. Norway will not let you in in if you or your partner cannot support you. Be up front with your criminal conviction. Don’t try to hide it.
Good luck
“There is generally no services for anyone to see a therapist for emotional or life issues.”
my fiancé probably would have ended up in a serious state if her GP didn’t take her so seriously when she hinted at having a depression. the very next week she started having sessions with a therapist two times a week, and the GP made herself avalible 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. 7 months with a therapist made her reach the point where she and the therapist mutualy agreed that she didn’t need the sessions any more. Never cost her anything.
My mother went through an emotional crisis due to her menopause. many would shrug at this as quite normal and expected during the menopause, but her GP insisted on her seeing a therapist, hormonal imbalance or not.
In short I am quite gratefull at how easy it has been for the ones close to me to recive professional therapy and medical assistance in regards to emotional difficulties and trauma.
In regards to the rest of your post: great read!
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from L-Jay:
Yes, but where do they live in Norway? Not every town or city in Norway can give this service. If fact, I had chronic back pain during pregnancy. I was referred to a special pregnancy back therapist by my GP. Even though I didn’t have to pay, two years later and on my second pregnancy, I was still on the waiting list to see her. When a doctor fills their ‘quota’ they don’t accept any more patients.
I have a friend who is studying psychology at the moment and she is basically ensured a job after uni as this profession is such in high demand. There are certainly not enough psychologists here in Norway – not enough for someone to decide on their own that they need to see one. For just like your two relatives, you have to be refereed by your GP first.
Has anyone booked themselves into seeing a psychologist in Norway because they needed help sorting out an issue?
hi L-JAY hope you doing well. i am coming to Norway this august as student but still confused about a thing and wonder if you could explain….i have submitted a subsistence of NOK 87600 for year2010-11 as my college asked me. the thing i am confused about is whether this subsistence would be enough to cover the rent of housing which is NOK 4000 p.m.or i have to arrange finances separately for rent purpose and subsistence is merely for food,elec. bills e.t.c hope to here from you soon
tc cheers
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from L-Jay:
Generally you only pay for housing for 10 months (as most student leave before the Summer) and usually one moth rent for bond – so it’s about 11 months rent (but you get bond back). Rent is included in the subsistence so that means you’ll have about kr.42,000 for the year. Food will be around kr.2000 per month if you skimp and cheapest bus is about kr.600 per month. So that’s another kr.26,000 gone. For the rest you will need to buy things like bedding, school books, toiletries, etc and then if you drink alcohol or smoke or want to travel you will bust the bank. If you are single I’d suggest living in a dorm which will be half the rent and get a part time job. Better still, bring more money. In Norway the poverty level is kr.219,000 so you will be living on 2/5s of that.
Hey,
Google led me here today. First of all, I want say thanks, because this article and the website overall are very insightful. I have this, lets call it plan, to move live in Norway, since over a year now, more exactly in Trondheim (or nearby), firstly, let me say that I live in Rome, city center, and I know, some of you might think I am crazy, for wanting to move out of the, some would say, most beautyful city in the world.
“grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” they say, looking at another country, especially when you are fascinated/attracted by it, tends to bring out only the good sides only.
I am aware of the diverse condition that there are ‘up there, the cold, harsh winter, and other things you have already metioned, but I think i’ll be able to adapt, I’d take -15 degrees over +35 any time, any day. I’m tired of being surrounded by concrete and ruins.
i really like how you wrote your article, also with some critiques at various aspects of norevegian society and what people take for granted, but let me tell you, in Most countries, such things like funds you can attach tho, maternity retire or scholarship, dont even exist. I’ll be damned if I can go live in a dorm, or any apartament, without having my parents to pay for it. Of course norway does not give you “help if you dont meet certain requirements, but hey, at least Society is present, and its a country that is working (im sure you all know what I mean by “a country that is working”), sure, it is not very sunny and warm, but if you want more, you’ll have to move to Disneyland
Food is the least of my problems, so is the “foreign treatment” I might get, all i really ‘need’ is an ADSL connection and a place to keep my motorbike.
there are some more things i could say, but this is already too long I guess.
Thanks again.
ps: yes , im wiling to give up on pizza!
Great posting, alot of what people have said is exactly what I have experienced since coming to Norway 2 yrs ago.
It has confirmed what I have been realising over the last year:
It is not you
don’t take it personally
adapt and change your expectations
do it yourself.
Then you realise some things are goddamn amazing! (it may help that it is now June, i doubt I was thinking that in November).
You do get alot of peace living in a place where the person on the highest wage in the country only earns about 7x the absolute lowest wage- in the UK it is factors of 10 diference, so there is alot less ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’ in Norway, and less sections of society that will never ever have the life that the richest have.
Norway is very homogenous in some respects, people tend to do the same things at the same time, and eat the same food (at the same time), and have the same childhood experiences. which is boring but it means that even the ‘new norwegians’ eg children of pakistani immigrants, experience some of the same things as the established Norwegians (even if their parents don’t have a summer and a winter hytta).
It feels like there is alot less resentment by dissaffected youth. ‘Everyone is equal’ certainly does rob people of their ambition and competiveness, but on the other hand people have higher self esteem and do not have to compare their lifestyle to someone else’s that is out of reach.
Regarding counselling:
‘Has anyone booked themselves into seeing a psychologist in Norway because they needed help sorting out an issue?’
This is the link for my local famiiekontor, where you can see counsellors for personal/relationship/family problems, a colleague who used it said they were friendly and helpful, and you don’t need a referal from a doctor. Waiting time 3 weeks. I imagine these exist in other Bydels.
http://www.bydel-alna.oslo.kommune.no/barn_unge_familie/familiesenter/ostensjo_familiekontor/
Something I think is very civilised here:
It is compulsory to see a family counsellor if a relationship involving children breaks up, to arrange access and ensure good relations for the childrens’ sake. I think that’s pretty cool.
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from L-Jay:
A lot of great points there. And I think the parent counselling for divorcees is very smart. Your tips on living in Norway (It is not you, don’t take it personally, adapt and change your expectations, do it yourself) is spot on. I think this is the best advice ever on how to surrive in Norway.
Hi L-jay i really enjoyed reading your posts. I am from New Zealand and i am currently going through interviews for a job in Norway. Your site has really opened my eyes as to what i should expect, if i do decide to move to Norway. I wanted to ask you what would be a good salar for a single person to survive in Norway and have a comfortable life as i have no idea what people earn there. Any ideas around salaries?
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from L-Jay:
Well, new teachers get about kr350,000 and computer science bankers and state dentists get around kr500,000. No-skilled wage is about kr240,000. The poverty level is kr219,000. A director of a company or organisation gets about kr700,000. The difference between poor and rich is smaller than most other countries. You can survive in Norway on an entry level wage (but if you smoke, drink, party, always eat out and buy a new car you will go bust).
Hi L-Jay,
just wanted to say thanks for coming to Norway and giving us a much-needed boost. As a nation of navel-gazers, we are critically dependent on ‘outsiders’ coming here and giving us a fresh view on possibilities for the future.
I was wondering, however, you speak quite a bit about the cities– have you ever lived in or visited the countryside of Norway, for instance Sogn og Fjordane? If no, you are in for a major lesson in inconvenience
If yes, do you have any thoughts on life there? Would you consider moving there perhaps?
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from L-Jay:
I love the country life in Norway. In a funny sort of way it reminds me of Oz. The people have this dark sense of humour similar to Australians.
Well, in the Norh at least. But I cant wait to visit Sogn og Fjordane – it looks so beautiful.
I’m just wondering if any of your readers have come upon the following issue: My 82 year old Norwegian mother is considering moving back to Norge to “retire” near her sisters and other family members, either in Trondheim (her hometown) or around Stavanger. She came to the US at age 21 and then returned to live in Norway for a number of years in the 1980′s, and moved back again to California in 1989 where she currently lives in a lovely retirement community. She is no stranger to Norway as she travels there nearly every year for a stay of at least 8 weeks – but I wonder if moving back at this age, with a very meager retirement income (social security from the US and a small Norwegian pension), is such a good idea, though I am in sympathy with her desire to “go home.”
Does anyone have any suggestions or comments? I’d greatly appreciate hearing from you if you’ve had a similar situation in your family.
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from L-Jay:
She wouldn’t have to worry about medical expenses as Norway has a free health service. If she has good family who will take care of her then this will help a lot. The biggest expense would be housing and food. If she lives with family (who are willing to take care of her) then her pension would be a ‘pocket money’. A lot of Norwegians retire to Spain to help their pension go further (and to enjoy the warmer weather). Living in Norway is physically hard – just walking to the shops can be a task (for the best of us). Ice, snow, wind, cold – it is hard to be outdoors in the Winter time.
hope this info helps.
hi LJ,
i love reading your blog. i have been following you but it’s only this time that i have the guts to comment and leave a message. i am a filipino and i have been here for almost 11 months. i have been in a norsk course to study the language so i can get a decent job here. i am married to a norwegian man and we have a 4 yr old daughter and my family is the reason why im here. i left a very good and promising career back home and when i got here , everything has changed. it’s very hard to find a job that doesnt require norwegian language. a teacher even told me that **yes,you have good education, you have good professional experience but your norsk is not impressive<*…so she said, it will be very hard to find a similar job with what you left back home..so better stop talking in english and start practicing your norsk.
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from L-Jay:
It is very true, however there are some places that are more lenient than others. I’m lucky to be in a profession where not many Norwegians have education or experience in. This is why I have no problem finding a job without Norwegian. I find the cities in the north are more open to English speakers in jobs (from my experience – Harstad, Tromsø and Alta). But you also get certain people who will only accept Norwegian speaking people. Usually it is because they are not good in English themselves. I teach children and youth and no one has any problem with me speaking Nor-lish. The kids help me out with Norwegian too which, funnily enough, strengthens our teacher-student relationship. But, of course, a school teacher should be fluent in the language to be able to teach math/science/Norwegian properly. But if you teach construction, media or fishing then the rules sometimes do not apply. I’d say, keep learning Norwegian and take the teacher’s advice with a grain of salt. Don’t give up!
Nice to hear from you.
Hello L-jay,,i enjoy reading your informative blog.
Could you shed more info on living and working conditions in stavanger.I am planning for master program in computer science at the university of Stavanger.Firstly,i do like to know if i can support my expenses with par-time work wage? I dont speak Nork yet,but my course is in English.Can one get a good job after studies master degree in Norway?..I will be moving as single guy,26yrs,no family in Norway or even a friend..how can life be for me? Is it really boring in stavanger? cos i want to study in a cosmopolitan area and enjoy the best of my study time.
I appreciate your suggestion.
thanks
Moyor.
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from L-Jay:
If you want cosmopolitan then I wouldn’t go to Norway. Norway is more ‘country’. Oslo is close but no cigar. Stravanger is an oil town and so has a lot of international workers. It will be easier to speak English there. If you are studying you can only work 20 hours a week and that will just cover rent and food. Getting work after studies depends on many factors like the type of visa you have, if you are what employers want and if you have good grades (everyone does Computer Science these days so you will have to compete with Norwegians for Norwegian jobs.)
Does anybody have any experience moving to Norway with schoolaged children? I am Norwegian, but my husband and 4 children are not, and the concern is for the older two (7 and 5) and their adapting to language, culture, school etc.
any insight would be much appreciated.
thanks also for an informative blog. Helps us consider things we had not thought about.
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from L-Jay:
Moving children at that age is much easier than teenagers because of the language. Your children so young will be able to pick up the language quickly. Your children’s heritage will help too. I’m afraid to say that immigrant children usually have a hard time of it – they tend to be targets for bullying. You should ask schools about their bullying problems first before enrolling your children – and especially about the schools action plans. A lot of schools are too lazy to do anything about bullying – its been such a long problem that they have given up.
I am not trying to be rude, but in Norway (to create friends) try to not be too open about your religion.
I live in Nord-Trøndelag and we don’t really like religion and a lot of people here blame all stupidity/war/poverty etc on it. Just a little heads-up
lol at Ole. I’m not surprise to hear that. I’ve seen that some myself, however when getting down to the nitty gritty of it Norwegians don’t know squat about the history of religion or all the atrocities that have been committed in the name of atheism and natural selection. When you get down to the core of the apple Norwegians just don’t like anything that requires discipline, restraint or impulse control, especially since these practices would interfere with their favorite past time: staggering through the streets drunk.
Hi:) I want to move to Norway but now that I read it, Norway doesn’t sound like what I was imagining. When you describe it, it sounds like a dark, lonely place… I’m only 13 and I don’t speak much Norwegian except for like I can count and say the days of the week and stuff like that. My grandma is full Norwegian so I’m only 1/4. My plan was to be an exchange student in Norway when I turn 15 or 16 and then move back to the states (where I live and where I was born) and finish college and become a plastic surgeon (don’t ask why I want to be a plastic surgeon because I don’t really know). I’ve always wanted to be one and I originally wanted to be one in Beverly Hills but then realized that thats retarded and they don’t get paid as much as they used to. Is plastic surgery big over there? Would I get paid as much if I was in America? I looked up plastic surgeons and there weren’t very many but since like the country is so expensive already, would people want to get plastic surgery? And with medical insurance for the equipment and all that buisiness I’m not sure it’d be a good job… What do you think? Oh and since you said it’s easier for kids to pick up Norwegian faster when they’re younger, did you mean like 6 years old or 13? Should I move there now? I don’t know how that’d work though because I don’t really have any family there unless I find some long lost cousin or whatever from ancestry.com. Oh and because Alexander Rybak lives in Norway I’m definitely moving there. Do you like him?? Me and him are getting married… If you comment back or whatever that’d be great because I’m like retarded and confused about whether I should move there or not… Thank you(:
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from L-Jay:
There isn’t really plastic surgery over here – if you got it, and there was already nothing wrong with you, you would be laughed at. Plastic surgery is generally saved for burn victims and people who have been victims of war, etc. Remember there is only 5 million people who live here so not much money to be made in it. You are likely not able to move to Norway just on your heritage and no authority would allow someone under 18 to move to Norway on there own when all their family is in another country. Moving to Norway after 13 and going to school would effect your grades. Many cannot learn Norwegian to an advanced level in time for them to do well in exams (like Norwegian, science, geography and history). But having an exchange year here would be fantastic. It will be great for personal development and experience.
Cheers
Part of the problem is here: “You need to shrug off all nuances of discrimination and racism. Norwegians don’t care for immigrants who complain and in fact, immigrants have developed a bad reputation as complainers.” I moved to Norway because I got a job here but since day 1 my norwegian colegues sabotaged all my efforts. My documents were always missing, reports that I was supposed to receive were lost while several colegues were stressing the fact that east Europeans (like me) have destroyed the wonderful Oslo… One colegue actually told me (in a meeting were all were present) that the best thing for people like me (…) is to collect some money and after some years go “back home”…I tried several times to raise the issue with my supervisors but they always pretend that they don’t understand. RACISM HAS A HOME AND IT IS IN NORWAY…
1 of the most important things for a potential immigrant to consider when moving to Norway is what kind of values their own culture consider to be decent. I’ve been married to a Norwegian “defector” for 11 years, we currently are living in Norway for 2-3 years and then moving back to the U.S. My wife being Norwegian herself has said time and time again she would never raise a child there. For starters Norwegians don’t put the kind of time and effort into family that someone from say the U.S. or the U.K. does. Going to a childrens soccer game in Norway will yield like 1 adult spectator for every 4 or 5 children, in the UK or US there will be more parents/adults there than children to cheer on the children and support them. Same for something such as a childrens singing choir. Norwegians have one of the laxest work schedules in the world (especially compared to the US) but very few parents will actually attend their childs event.
2nd thing to consider is that Norway has a very self centered and arrogant culture. That sounds harsh I know but, if the shoe fits……In the US or UK it is common place for a man to give up his seat to an elderly lady or a pregnant lady, in Norway you’re as likely to see a guy try to beat one of these individuals to a seat as give his up for courtesy/respect sake. As my wife said “chivalry is dead in Norway, if it ever existed at all”. Good luck having an intelligent discussion with a Norwegian. If you don’t believe George Bush was throwing out Satanic hand signals at the Thanksgiving Day Parade then you’re just an ignorant uneducated foreigner under the mind control of your government lol.
3rdy, Finland is the only Scandinavian country (although not actually considered to be Scandinavian) that has an above average school system. In Norway there are no special classes/schools for gifted or challenged students. They are all lumped into one class together and do not get the attention/challenge they need. Norway also scores very poorly on the PISA Euro Test. Actually if I remember correctly Mexico outscored Norway in science.
4thly Norwegians absolutely loath anything relating to discipline or impulse control. Spanking is illegal in Norway. Roughly 1 out of 1k Norwegians is hospitalized every year for alcohol poisoning. Something like 9% of students are flunking out of Stavanger University as I type this. If you are UK or US immigrant you will NOT want to leave your child in the care of a Norwegian. (Certainly my wife and I don’t). Norwegians do not consider risk/danger/responsibility and this can be especially dangerous while traveling abroad. They are a culture that is easily distracted by the flowers only to be bitten by the snake.
The final thing I would be concerned about is ethic/moral standards or standards of “decency” in your home country. In Norway it is not uncommon for a 14-15 year old girl to be on birth control given to her by her parents. Roughly 2% of all Norwegian females age 18 and younger have an abortion in Norway, not in their life time but EVERY YEAR. 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in Norway end in abortion and Norway actually led the world in 1 night stands in a research survey done by Durex. I saw in a study in the AftenPosten (spelling) that said something like 46% of all Norwegians reported their first sexual encounter was while intoxicated. Parenting unfortunately is treated more like a hobby or a “1 of 10 things most people do in life” type of undertaking in Norway, as opposed to the “greatest responsibility and most rewarding thing you will do in life” philosophy that the US or British people might view it as.
If you are from the U.S., Canada or UK or anywhere else in the world that has British ancestry or a culture with a higher standard for behavior and decency, Norwegian culture can be quite appalling for you.
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from L-Jay:
A lot of things here are very familiar to me. There is a lack in Norway of things I hold dear from my own culture, like giving a seat to someone who needs it more. But there is one thing that Norway has taught me and that is to value ‘fritid’ (free time). I never had any free time in Australia. In Norway there are days where Moose and I just spend the day in the sitting room playing with the kids. I could never do that in Australia. Norway makes you slow down. The other thing is that I find the English culture turning parents into micro-managers. The parents control every inch of a childs life. This is largely because of fear that there is a lot of bad people out there that can hurt your children. This fear doesn’t really exist in Norway. People are more trusting of other people in taking care of their kids. Recently I took 13 dance kids to the next city for a dance performance and didn’t need any signed forms, permissions and I didn’t even meet some parents. My English culture wouldn’t trust anybody like that but the Norwegian parents trusted me completely. English culture makes you worry about something even if it never happens but Norwegian culture only worries about something if it does happen. Letting go of the fear of ‘what ifs’ has been very good for me. There are many other things from my culture that trap me into being a worry-wart that I’m starting to slowly let go of because of Norwegian culture.
But I am very glad to have the ideology from my English culture of bringing up your own children. Norwegians don’t invest any of their own time in teaching their children themselves – they expect the government to provide all the education their children need. This is a serious fault in Norwegian culture. It means that Norwegian children are not taught by someone who loves them. This is something that will shape the next Norwegian generation, I think, for the worse.
Thanks for your comment L-Jay.
That part about Norway being safer for children is true, however I’ve been very reluctant to relax because of some other concerns their culture has aroused in me. They seem to have a “sh!t happens” attitude towards things, I’ve see far too many parents allow their 3 year old to go running out into a parking lot while they were on their cellphone/etc. The people seem to be kind of irresponsible to me, even my own family here in Norway concerns me and I have a constant adrenaline rush every time one of my childrens welfare is left in the hands of a Norwegian. Take for example we just got back from a trip to London where my wifes mother say my 20 month daughter down on a busy sidewalk and walked away because she got distracted by a sight. They don’t seem to have the sense of responsibility and accountability that I’m used. I don’t want to sound like I’m resorting to childish insults lol, but if I had to describe it to someone I’d just say they’re air headed (or air brained). A surplus of safety seems to have turned them into the people of the future from HG Wells book “The Time Machine”. They are far too concerned with the pleasures and playing in life than they are the responsibilities.
Another reason I would be afraid to get lax with my children is because of the abuse statistics I’ve seen. Something like 8.5% of Norwegian females interviewed by their gynecologist reported having been abused by vaginal contact as a child. 8.5% is a staggering rate. Also of concern is the recent wave of p3d0phil!a that has been uncovered in the Nation. I read in a Norwegian newspaper that the gov has had to hire increased police security for the border between Norway and Russia because of the large amount of Norwegian males traveling to Russia to buy underage prostitutes.
I know I sound like a nagger/complainer but there just doesn’t seem to be alot of decency left in the Norwegian people. It seems like they are only concerned with alcohol and telling other people how to conduct their own business while completely ignoring their own problems and responsibilities. Even my wife has become frustrated with the culture over here and reassures me she would never want to raise our children in Norway. Being a Norwegian herself I find that very concerning for the state of it’s people and culture.
Are you a permanent immigrate yourself? Married to a Norwegian? Not trying to be nosy I’m just curious as to what brings people from other cultures to Norway.
Thanks again for the reply!
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from L-Jay:
So what would bring an Australian to live in one of the coldest places on earth ? Why… love, of course!
Hello L-Jay,
Thank you for posting this,I find it extremely useful.Here is my question.I am 28 yrs with ballet studies (not holding a BA) and I’m coming to Norway as an au pair.My host family assured me that if I go for it,I can have a chance to enter the University for BA in dance, and later to find a job in my field.Also they told me that I can work at a ballet school for a few hours per week,even without a BA.I just gave my Intermediate exams,though my level it’s higher but I started lately with the RAD system.Of course I’ll be learning the language.I’m dreaming of Norway since I was 18 but until this day I hadn’t any chance.So what do you think?
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from L-Jay:
You know what – go for it! I don’t know where you’ll live in Norway but any dance school (outside Oslo) would be happy to have you. There are only a handful of ballet teachers in Norway and so they are greatly sort after. (This is the case with most performing arts.) You don’t even need to speak Norwegian! (And if people say you do they are lying – I don’t speak Norwegian and I have been teaching dance in Norway for over 4 years. And I teach 3 year olds and up.) There is likely to be only one problem with you starting ballet and that is most schools would want someone who is committed to stay and develop a program of learning. This is my first year of teaching dance for the kommune and every month the director of the school is asking me to continue next year…lol. Where I live there are no ballet teachers, and I’m sure this is the case with a lot of kommunes. My kommune has even imported ballet teachers from Russia – but they have always turned out badly as they don’t stay and develop a program – they move to Oslo the first chance they get leaving the kulturskole in the lurch. You don’t need a formal education in ballet but it would give you a pay-rise.
Hope this helps.
Thank you so much L-Jay for answering my questions!!I intend to stay, I want to make it work out so much.Reading through all your posts I believe I will adapt, (after all,I was always fascinated about how Norwegian live their lives, the time,the seasons, the customs, etc,not to mention again that the beauty of Norway brings tears in my eyes).I will be living in Nesset (More og Romsdal district).The conditions are overwhelming(the family,working hours,plus I will have my own apartment provided by the family,not just a room, and they are very supportive to my future pursuits with ballet.I don’t want to move to Oslo,always when I was thinking of Norway,I was wishing to live somewhere in the coast,above Bergen.So I guess I’m lucky!!Again thank you,I’m more excited than ever
Good blog, I read this page for several times and try to understand everything you mentioned.
I am wondering the avarage salary in Norway, do you know the month salary of Norway’s software engineer? about 5 years’ experience, I guess it’s about $10,000/month in USA, but Norway’s tax and price are high, so how much is reasonable in Norway.
and how about the basic living cost (including rent an apartment, and food/cooking) if I stay in Trondheim, would you give me an estimated amount so that I can know how much I can save per month.
Thanks
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from L-Jay:
It depends on what type of work you do. If you are high-end maintaining and designing software for banks then from NOK500,000. If you are in gaming, working for the government or another saturated industry, then much less. The average wage in Norway is about NOK400,000. However, it is easy to survive on NOK250,000 if you don’t drink or smoke and not paying off a car or house.
It’s funny how so many americans come to norway because they have a norwegian spouse or partner. If Norwegians are so as you say cold, boring and self-centered, then how come most of you who posted here (foreigners) ended up with a nowegian?
I’m not a Norwegian and I have noticed most of you here are trying to portray Norway being a bad place to live. Im auctually australian and I don’t think Australia is so great anymore with so many immigrants who don’t want to assimilate and accept aussie way of life, crime and bad public school system. I don’t know where in Australia you lived L-Jay but when it comes to public health system, how good it is in Australia outside major cities. How about the hospital in Freeling, SA or even Dubbo,NSW. I prefer to live in norway because norwegians have their own culture and habbits and unlike Australia, they don’t let immigrants run their life.
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from L-Jay:
I’ve heard in the wind that one of the reasons so many Norwegian men marry an immigrant wife is because Norwegian women have too high standards and are very picky. Norwegian men find it harder to marry Norwegian women unless they have a good pay cheque. Norwegian women are practical that way. Saying a lot for immigrant standards…lol.
In ratio compared to Australia there are a lot more immigrants in Australia than Norway. That is because Australia lets in more immigrants for jobs and education. Australians are a lot more accepting of immigrants and needed immigrants in order to survive as a country. (Remember an immigrant isn’t just someone from a third world country but also the UK, US and Europe). How would Australia feel about their immigrants if they were all boat people instead of legally entering Australia? That is the way Norwegians feel about immigrants in Norway. A large majority of immigrants in Norway are asylum seekers – people who get to the country and throw away their passports to stay. This is the reason why Norwegians aren’t too fond of any immigrant. They think we are here to take jobs and bludge off the system. The idea here is exactly like they idea you have of Australia:
Norwegians don’t want immigrants for the mere fact of why you, in particular, want to live in Norway – they like their own culture. They see immigrants as taking away their ‘Norwegianness’ – and that is precisely what immigrants do of any culture. They muddy cultures with their own. Australia is too young to have a definite culture (discovered so late compared to the rest of the world) and since they started strong immigration Australia has accepted other cultures. Norway does not accept other cultures – in fact, when you come to Norway they expect you to leave all your culture at the border – could you leave your ‘Australianness’ at the border?
A side note: We have a lot of comments on this blog from readers discussing how hard it is to live in Norway when no one really accepts you fully. We appreciate those comments because they give a balanced view of what it is like to immigrate to Norway. In posts like these we prefer to take off our rose-coloured glasses.
There are always two sides and I think you would appreciate the companion post Why Live in Norway.
I’m considering moving to Norway next year. I have friends there and have spent time there too. I adore the country, and the people I’ve met have been reserved but not unfriendly. My main issue is that I work from home on the internet, my job can be done from anywhere with Internet access, but as I work on UK websites I will be paid from the UK. Transferring money between countries is never easy, and always involves some costs. As I would be self-employed how would that affect my paying tax?
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From Moose:
As with all income, any expense you have with making money is tax deductible. I’m not sure if the costs of transferring money between countries will count, since this is an expense that happens “after” you get paid. In Norway you will at least have to pay national insurance to be covered by public health and welfare services, but I assume most of your tax will still be payable to the UK if that’s where you formally get paid.
hello. I am fullz agreed with L-jay. Norway is nothing land to enjoy the life. its full with depression. no life. everything is dull. who siad norway is rich land with rich people??? Norway is the poor land with poor people. everyone living on credit. who said its a healthy land??? i found more people sick Speacilly mentally sick people.no fashion ,no sun.. Norwegian people think they are the best on earth but they dont know that they are the ignorant people on earth. they smell very strange, u can find lot of them with smack or heroine on the public places. norway is not safe in the night. more worse than Russia. I cam from Cyprus with my wife. we both get job but now we both leave our jobs by own wish and going back to cyprus fianlly. i will tell here to Norwegian that THEY ARE FROGS IN THE WELL……
I guess this is what you call a cultural battlefield in a sense. Well I am from Greece and lived up to now to the UK, Italy, Norway and Latvia…and Greece of course. I can tell you that Norway can be an issue for many people. I totally agree with the people that say that Norwegians can be a lot to themselves but take it a cultural thing and only that. I never felt more at home than Norway (actually planning to go back soon). I would suggest you read a bit of Norwegian history and literature to try and undesrtand what it is all about. Try to turn the negatives in to positives, reorganize your thoughts in the winter and play around in the summer. When approaching people dont invade their lives, they dont like that (but then so do I, perhaps that is why I like it so much there). Being a writer aside from my main profession this country is always the place to be. Additionally there are a lot of places on this planet that people have such an outlook in life, it just happens that people notice Norway more as it is a potential work destination. On a very personal point I love about Norwegians the fact that they can set a time for fun, time to work, time to socialize etc. It is a very home-centered culture and you need to be prepared for that. I could use similar comment like some people above for places like the US. I visited the place on a job offer but didnt like it and hence rejected it. By no means though think that I hate the US, it is just not my cup of tea. So generally there is a lot of fuss about Norway, and it is exactly the things people dont like that made the country what it is, so treat it as special case. As far as racism is concerned be aware that there a lot of places you dont want to be in this planet and Norway is not one of them. You might get the occasional weird look but people are not used to the brown haired guy (thats me). You wanna know why? Do your history revision. Almost up to the seventies Norway hadnt discovered oil. It was nearly bankrupt. So no one wanted to live there and the multi ethic mix was not present. Are you still surprised why you get the weird look from people that hadnt met a dark skinned person while growing up? As far as national pride is concerned read a bit again. Norway was a province of Denmark and Sweden untill the early 1800s. It was poor and within thirty years is the second coutry with the highest standards of living. Wouldnt you be proud about that? Arable land is less than 5% and still many families live from farming!!!
So to cut it short, yes it is a country that can be diffcult to live in, but as in any other country you need to accept a few things when changing environments. Be tolerant and try to justify why people do that.
As a general advice, if you come from countries with an outgoing lifestyle (like our friend from Cyprus above) Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, certain parts of the US and many others, be prepared foe a major change in lifestyle. If not just dont do it, you will be left bitter for the wrong reasons.
This is all very helpful! My husband and I are considering moving to Norway. We have had a hard time trying to figure out how much money he’ll need to earn in order to support the family. We have a toddler and another baby on the way, so I’d be staying at home for at least a year. I have read it is hard to survive on only one income, but I haven’t found any real numbers. Do you have an estimate of how big of a salary would be needed for a family to live on comfortably?
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from L-Jay:
Well, if you are paying off a car and a house, you would want to be earning at least NOK600,000 to be comfortable with a dependent adult and two children. But a lot depends on where you live. In Oslo, you’d want to be earning 800,000. Remember the government takes nearly 30% and it costs at least 150,000 for a two bedroom rental, in Oslo.
wow! Yikes! Don’t think we’ll be moving to Norway for a while then!
I doubt an architect would make that much money!
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from L-Jay:
You’d be surprised. I’ve noticed that some developing kommunes, such as Alta, hire ‘kommune architects’. There is a job going for one in Alta right now. Though, I must admit that some architects here (and council men) are a little silly. The Alta church is running out of cemetery space because of a cliff face so they are filling the cliff to create more land. This is right next to the main road and the reason the ‘cliff’ is there in the first place is because of a land slide…lol.
The problem with any country I lived in is that they all talk about you having to adjust, when my question is always to adjust to what. Mobbing at work is mobbing everywhere in the world, mistreating foreigners is the same wherever you are. But they are saying you, it is you that have to blend in. How on Earth can you do that? Really. You would only trick yourself in trying. After a decade of trying exactly that, and leaving one country after another, I decided to stick with one of them and simply be who I am. Yes, it costs me that I have to go at the back of the bus, it costs me that I cannot speak with too many people, but to tell you the truth… it is the reality. It is so. You can’t change Norwegians, Americans, Canadians, Germans… they are what they are. They believe about you what they will, they express their life’s frustrations over you because they believe you are the easiest target. No blending can help about that. Either they need something you have, or they do not. Effort that you take in blending in is… pointless, you are cheating yourself and you actually never get any kind of respect from anyone anyway. For me… this final choice of being who I am, and if not accepted, if truly not accepted, if in real danger of being beaten, then I would probably leave, but other than that I would be staying who I am even here. Finally, now, I can survive this all, the pain is the same but by the end I have someone to return to ever day – me, without any attempt of being what I am not. I am just a simple man, honest, fine, normal, and I have no reason to believe that any of that should be changed because some people are not accustomed to foreigners. I will stay out of their way, that is the agreement. And to be honest with you, I think that it is the best choice, I do not think I should wear or ever display anything of my religious or political believes, that is true, but to change facial, skin or body measurements, or to suddenly attempt to speak fluently any language… sorry but those who live in that country were not born there for nothing. They have been learning that language, and were born from their local parents. I was not. How mad should I now be to treat myself otherwise? I am not local, that is the point, that is the truth. Sure, some form of socialization should exist, it is good if I learn some language, it is good if I have skills that the society needs, but that is more all less it. Many laws, including Norwegian immigration, try to solve the mystery of new-comers by enforcing some stupid and pointless rules, like the one that you have to attend 300 hours of Norwegian. Sorry, but that is idiotic. In order to learn a new language you need skills that some people simply do not have. Second, to force someone to learn something is almost certain way of getting the opposite result. So what they do… they ask you to attend, nothing more just to attend and pay, if you work, 300 hours. Many other immigration laws in many countries are like that, the problem is recognized and solved… on paper.
Stay who you are… that is my suggestion. Yes, it is painful that way, but at least you will know quite soon if that is a country for you or not. Never again I will try to blend in, to try to reduce the pain I am getting from people who are basically hating you. If someone does not like you, shouldn’t you stay away? Unless you can find sufficient number of people, one is enough, who can accept you for what you are in any country, the mental state you can get in by trying to blend in might backfire the way which can damage anything you have achieved in a new country. Stay who you are, because you were born that way. Use a new country to learn, grow, extend yourself and help them being a better country. That initial state of the believing that you are an underdog will stay that with some people forever. That is what many people like: to find someone they can release their frustration at. It is this reason why every government is trying to force you to blend in. But simply, be smart, don’t deliberately expose the fact that you are a foreigner in any way, stay out of trouble at work, at pub… anywhere… but still remain who you are, because if you do not, in the end, you will be the victim anyway.
With this said above, Norway is the most painful country I lived so far. The basic problem is that they do not function properly. Service in Norway is, I do not know what to say, non-existing. Any kind of service. Bank, post, kindergarten… anything you can imagine simply does not work or at least it does not work the way you would expect. People avoid doing their job to such an extent that you cannot count on anything. For example they have 5 weeks vacation which they almost all use over the summer, so the country is at that time simply blocked. For example, to get my passport stamped with a visa I had to give them my passport for one week. One week without passport. And so many other things that it is simply unimaginable even to explain. Unless they have to do something, unless they are almost physically forced to do something they do not want to know about it. However, for everybody else (including foreigners) they have very high requirements. They get angry if something they need does not work. Regarding Norwegian, I honestly believe that they think that I do not want to speak, even I do know it. Honestly. As if I can choose. Only a lazy person can believe that, a person who is not aware of how much labor one needs to learn anything.
Norway is playing a dangerous game. They have the money at the moment, but they do not invest it properly. They do not bring high-skilled workers, and even if they do most of them do not stay very long and pass many bad news about this country so even fewer are deciding to come.
It is a beautiful country, but there are other beautiful countries in this world. For me, we shall see, but reading and knowing all the restriction imposed regarding my future, social, pension and the rest, which is even in the USA resolved instantly, however good or bad, but resolved, and here in this most soc… whatever country it is obvious that you simply have to be born Norwegian to get any of it, I simply do not trust them. Money I earn are spent mostly locally, it is highly difficult to save anything.
Yes, they play a deadly game of coming back to some pre-industrial time as soon as the money they have at the moment vanish. Because no casual high-skilled worker would stay here too long. And without engineers, no money have any value. Plainly speaking, Norwegians allow themselves way way waaaay too much than any other country that cares about its future I have met in my life.
When you say you need family or work or assylum to enter and live in Norway. Some of my family moved away from Norway just two generations ago, I’m interested in spending time in Norway to see if I like it and to check out the motherland so to speak. I was wondering if you could sort of break that down I’m postive Nordeng’s still live in Norway. Of course I don’t know any of them. But the work thing I was wondering about the military and citizenship how hard is it to go in the military or does Norway even have a military force to speak of? I grew up in a cold environment I dont know but its like my grandparents couldn’t bare to live somewhere warm. So the weather won’t be a problem for me and the food obviously won’t be a problem and what I hear of the discription of the culture it sounds exactly like my family and friends who are also mostly Norwegian. I don’t speak any of the language and I will become fluent before I do visit.
So what avenues should I start checking to prepare myself for a possible visit, like what places should I check out i wan’t to experience as much of Norway as possible before I make a decision. Great post bye the way.
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from L-Jay:
I just did a quick search of ‘Nordeng’ in the online telephone book. There are 2231 individuals with the last name Nordeng registered in Norway. They live all over the country but most (about 70%) live in Østlandet. This is around the Oslo area. Maybe you should check out Oslo and Southern Norway, if you want to search your roots.
In terms of moving to Norway, the same rules apply to you as everyone else – work or marriage/children/parents for permanent residency. You have to be a Norwegian citizen to be in the military. It takes minimum 7 years to become a Norwegian citizen. You have to pass a language test and you also have to give up any other citizenships you hold. (In some countries this is classified as treason – so it is a very serious move.)
Hi a few q’s, my name is Jeremy from NYC and I am extremely worried about the us economy and country, I have thought about moving to NO(after I get a BA and masters), I have close friends there (almost like family). My question is can you see a psychiatrist regularly and if not can you get medicine prescribed? Can you outline the mental health system? Although mental health care is bad in the us, where I live it’s really really good and I suffer from Anxiety and long term depression so it has been quite good for me, but I can relate to norwegians better than Americans (socio political and cultural reasons, I grew up with European cultural influences) Also, is there a market for tutors for students like in the us?, as that might be a possible job I can do, (i would have to learn norsk off course) finally I am ethnically jewish (though not religious and an atheist) Am I likely if I move to find much discrimination based on my non nordic background?
love your blog btw
Jeremy
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from L-Jay:
If you suffer from depression, moving to Norway might not be a good option. Norway suffers from high depression due to lack of sunlight for half the year and cold temps that make you stay indoors all the time. Many Norwegians get depressed, and they are used to it, but it greatly affects those who are from sunny countries, like Australia, Spain, Brazil and Nigeria, etc.
Norway is not big on mental health services. It is really not in Norwegian nature to share your problems. They try to have a good system but mostly everything is public and I’m guessing very few know enough English to be helpful.
Tutoring isn’t big in Norway either. Education is free so it doesn’t matter if you fail cos you can just take the course again. Silly attitude but Norwegians don’t care for their children’s education. They expect the State to do everything.
Your ethnicity isn’t an issue. Before the war it would have been (it is a little known fact that all of Europe, including Norway, didn’t like Jews and treated them badly.) But this is not an issue now however, there is only one synagogue in Norway – Oslo. There are a lot of immigrant Muslims in Norway – I don’t know if they will cause problems but the law will be on your side. Norway doesn’t take too kindly to racism. In fact, it is likely that no one will know that you are a Jew unless you tell them or wear a cap.
thank you
, I probably wont move then because of the depression issue, however I might go this summer to see friends just for a few weeks. Thank you for your help
Actually I’m still not sure about all this.. hmm.
I’m still not sure what you mean that Norway is not big on Mental health, is it possible to get medicine prescribed and see a psychiatrist or a therapist or not? What kind of freelance jobs could Americans who speak English get, is it necessary to be fluent in Norwegian to get a job by an employer? I dont where a cap, so it wont be an issue,.
Regards
Jeremy
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from L-Jay:
It is up to a doctor to refer you to a psychiatrist – you can’t just choose one yourself and go. But the doctor needs to judge if you are depressed enough to use the service. And even if you are (depressed enough) there are usually long waiting lists to see specialists. (For example – I was referred to a back specialist when I was pregnant. By the time I got a place, I had already given birth to my second baby!) Or the doctor will just give you drugs. But everything depends on where you live in Norway. Depression doesn’t get much sympathy in Norway. The Norwegian health service is not good with service. To an English westerner it can feel like a third world country, or a least a second…lol.
Freelance jobs for English speakers? Oi! This means you have to start your own business and network. You can’t network without the language and the promotion or encouragement of English working places is frowned upon unless you work on an oil rig. If you are in the arts you can get away with English but then after a while you are expected to speak Norwegian. The sky is the limit but Norwegians don’t do ‘freelance’ as it is too much work keeping up with the Jones’. You can only freelance if there is enough population and everywhere in Norway there is not enough to make a descent living and not speaking Norwegian can make it 100 time worse. It is best to get a solid job when coming to Norway. That will start you on the right track, give you connections and then after you check out the viability of freelancing in your field you can make the switch.
When you move to Norway you want to make sure you set up your life to succeed. Many jump in because they can’t wait and end up going home defeated and penniless. You have to secure your future even before you get to Norway.
Good luck.