Wacky Norwegian Discrimination
Discrimination runs rampaged in every country – Norway is no different. In fact, if you are from any other culture, even English, and want to live in Norway, be prepared to be discriminated against in the most unlikeliest of situations.
Call Centres
Everyone hates it when a stranger calls up to try and flog a ‘great deal’ on the telephone. Normally it is the poor person who has been woken up or disturbed who hangs up on the caller, but in Norway it is the caller who hangs up first. I get called up by sellers at least two times a week – usually phone companies trying to get me to switch over. As soon as I speak about 50% of the callers hang up on me. Even my own bank hangs up on me when I call them (like today, hence the inspiration for this post)! I think it’s because I don’t speak Norwegian, I hope it’s not because I’m not Norwegian. Even though I have the right to live in Norway whether I speak Norwegian or not, I am still not treated normal, like a Norwegian.
No English – No University
Norwegians have a habit of discriminating against themselves. In fact, to be admitted into an undergraduate course at a Norwegian university you must know English. Even if you are Norwegian born and bred and have your ancestry traced to St Olav, you still can’t attend university unless you have passed High School English.
Getting in Lifts with the Elderly
The elderly are very forward about who they like and who they don’t like. Moose and I were in a lift with Lilu. An elderly lady entered. She said something to me and not knowing what she said I just smiled and nodded my head. Then she started cooing at Lilu. The lift door opened again and there stood a woman with a pram, however, there was no room in the lift. She didn’t hop on and the doors closed. The elderly lady muttered something and smiled at us. She hopped off at the next level. I turned to Moose and asked what she said: ‘B@*+? foreigners’. I was a little shocked. The woman with the baby might have been from Somalia or Nigeria but the colour of her skin branded her as ‘immigrant’. I was offended because I was the same as the woman – an immigrant with a baby. I wonder what the elderly lady would have done if she knew I was an immigrant too.
Filling Quotas
If there is one position to sit on a board of directors and you are a highly qualified male, your lowly qualified female co-worker has first dibs on the position before you. This is because the government has set quotas on how many percentages of women and people with ethnic backgrounds should be on a company board. This discriminates against qualified people.
Yoga Classes
I have a Brazilian friend who goes to yoga classes. For the past year the instructor has ignored her and even walks around the class helping everyone else. My friend speaks Norwegian well enough to have a job where Norwegian is the working language. My friend feels that it is not her Norwegian that the instructor is avoiding.
These daily discriminations make the soul heavy. I wonder how long it would take to be equal to a Norwegian in Norway.
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It’s always fun to take kids to the beach.
Norwegian dogs were born with a purpose. They were bred to be hunting dogs, herding dogs and farm dogs.
Table settings are very much a part of the tradition of serving cake.
Norwegians love their mountainous nature so much they spend whatever time they can in it – for recreation, fitness, hunting or just family time.
21st January is soldagen (the sun day) when the sun officially returns to Tromsø.
Norway enters the Christmas season early.
I find the bank hanging up on you strange. Despite their language of business being Norwegian, I would think they’d see forwarding your call to someone competent in English as a better business move than simply hanging up, which is just rude.
Having to know English to go to University isn’t a bad idea if you ask me. Several courses during my time at a lowly poly-tech have required a basic or higher proficiency in English, and many university educated people will end up in jobs where they face English daily.
The rest of the post seems to me to be individual racist people, which would be hard for me to comment on. I’m generally not that surprised when I hear elderly people blurt out weird racist stuff though, they grew up in a different country, have probably had very little interaction with foreigners and have probably read way too much negative stuff about brown people in the papers through the years.
(For the record, I’m not saying they’re right to be racist, just that it doesn’t surprise me much)
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from L-Jay:
Yeah, these things are just odd to me, a little funny, actually. Being a foreigner I find that some Norwegians act oddly. For example there have been a few times when a Norwegian finds out I only speak English and they walk away from me…lol. Or, a few times a Norwegian has moved to another seat on the bus because I’m talking English with another immigrant. This behaviour is extremely noticeable by foreigners and a lot tend to get offended by it.
The English thing is very weird…lol – English isn’t a national language but yet you must know it to go to school in Norway and use it in many other areas of life. That’s ironic? I sometimes wish English was a national language, then I wouldn’t feel so guilty finding Norwegian hard to learn
I made a reply on How to Get a Job in Norway as a commenter has been offended by Norwegians. I wrote about how every country suffers with racism, you only notice it when you are on the ‘other’ side.
But even though I’m a foreigner I think I’m very lucky in Norway, more than most foreigners. I think it is largely because I have a Norwegian husband and my kids are Norwegian. I’m very active in the community too. But because of this I’ve got an ‘on the fence’ position. I empathise with both foreigners and Norwegians. I think it is important to mention the good, the bad and the beautiful about Norway so foreigners can get a better, more personal, idea. I just hope to bring an all round experience of being a foreigner with a Norwegian family. Who knows, maybe one day I’ll make myself officially Norwegian too.
I’m not sure I’d call it ironic, it’s just a sign of the world having gotten closer to us the last 40 years and something we have to deal with. Personally I don’t think it’s impossible to combine with clinging onto our own language. I also think it’s a good idea to learn one foreign language well, at a minimum.
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from L-Jay:
We had this discussion at uni (amongst Norwegians, Germans, people from the Balkans, US (and Oz
). Our Norwegian lecturer put a light on how weird it is to choose to learn a language that only 5 million people speak in a far corner of the world. It was suggested that Spanish was a good language to learn as (I think) it is spoken in the most countries.
However, to reside in Norway you don’t have to know Norwegian. To get a Settlement Permit you don’t have to know Norwegian either – just have completed 300 hours of Norwegian classes. This is very lenient compared to other countries. It will be interesting to see if Norwegian will be around in 100 years time. Too bad I won’t be here to know…
When it goes I think it’ll be because we failed to hold onto it in enough situations. A few Norwegian companies already use English as their main language.
I don’t think enough foreigners come here for that to make much of a difference. The second generation will pick up the language anyway, if a bit poorer than they would with fluent parents.
It might not be a bad idea to ask for a pass on a test after those 300 hours anyway though. It’d only make life easier for anyone who came here, in the long run.
Call Centres: The vast majority of Norwegians do not allow them to call. You can ban them from calling you at: http://www.brreg.no or by calling 75007503. Since most people have banned them, the ones who have not get more calls.
I don’t know why they hang up when you answer in english. When I lived in the UK and answered in english as a matter of course, that did not stop them from trying. (That was before we could ban them of course) I shall have to try it next time someone calls illegally. (Some people still call, even if they are banned)
University: It is a bit more complex than that. An university education is open to everyone, mainly limited by ability. (And some studies, like medicine, have only a certain number of places, so you compete against other applicant in grades) The way to demonstrate the minimum ability to study is (mainly) by passing grades from the Norwegian “High School” in maths, norwegian, english, social studies and science.
In other words, passing grades in those 5 subjects are the “bar” you must clear to qualify for university.
The eldery:…yeah. Anyone know of a country where elderly people are not sometimes grouchy, racist or otherwise hold attitudes the modern world has left behind? I think everywhere has them.
Board of directors. Actually, that only applies for stock companies publically listed on the bourse. (And those boards are already subject to legislation in the form of responsibility and “habilitet”) Such boards are frequently stocked with people from outside the company anyway. Workers for inside the company rarely end up on the bord of directors. (Except some in elected positions, I think) Some people make an excellent living from being good at being on boards.
And their potential recruitment pool is…well, almost everyone.
Since boards normally nominate people they know, it had been a bit of a “boys club” that turned out to be particularily hard to crack for women. It is anticipated that in a few years, things will be mixed up enough that the whole law can be removed with networking more even.
The Bank: Frankly, that is just unacceptable! You should complain. I understand that individuals can be very insecure about their foreign language skills, but they should have had the courtesy to pass you on to someone more fluent! (Was it an 815-number? Because I’ve had a problem with them cutting off a bit after contact all day)
Yoga Classes: I think the yoga instructor needs to answer that one.
Most people meet 1000 people each day who don’t care about thir country of origin for every asshat that does. Most people will remember only the asshat.
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from L-Jay:
Thanks for the heads up about blocking the call centres. I’ll try it but coz my number is used for a business I think by law it has to be in the public domain?
I understand the 1/1000 point – but to tell you the truth, struggling with being a foreigner is an every day occurrence. There is not a week that goes by that I don’t have an experience that reminds me I’m an ‘immigrant’ and ‘immigrants’ are not wanted in Norway. I’m lucky that I can blend in and if I don’t have to talk people will just think I’m Norwegian. Some immigrants can’t blend in at all, and I know they have it much harder than I do. Not everyone in Norway makes immigrants feel rejected or unwanted but there is usually one a day or one a week who do. Even though I love Norway, I also think it is important to let foreigners know that it is not all cream cakes and gløgg. Hopefully info found here will enable foreigners to make a better choice on whether to immigrate to Norway.
” Even though I love Norway, I also think it is important to let foreigners know that it is not all cream cakes and gløgg. Hopefully info found here will enable foreigners to make a better choice on whether to immigrate to Norway.”
Agreed. Coming here with the impression that it’ll be a cakewalk won’t do them any good, and will only make what’s actually bad seem even worse.
Oh, PS: I think it is easy for native English speakers to underestimate just how insecure Norwegians are about their English skills. Many people will flash back to the trauma of old Miss Facegnawer in high school demanding perfect pronouncialtion of everything. Some of the people with the best prounounciation are the least fluent and the most insecure. You can tell a Norwegian with post-traumatic pronouncialtion stress syndrome by the way the eyes flicker in panic just before they bolt.
The more fluent people are often the most happy-go-lucky with their pronounciation.
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from L-Jay:
It’s kind of a catch 22. I speak English because I think Norwegians will understand my English much better than my Norwegian…lol. I always hear that Norwegians are shy and don’t actually know English as well as what other people make out. As a foreigner, even Norwegians tell me all Norwegians speak English. This is certainly not true. The more remote or Northern I go the more I have to rely on my immigrant-Norwegian. But some Norwegians are very considerate to make sure I don’t make too much of a dill out of myself. I think after a while they want to put me out of my misery so they start talking English – it’s really just easier. But it is exhausting having to be confronted with the Norwegian/English thing with every new encounter.
“Many people will flash back to the trauma of old Miss Facegnawer in high school demanding perfect pronouncialtion of everything.”
English in school was a very mixed bag for me. On one had I had a teacher who mocked a fellow pupil for the remainder of a class after his failure to pronounce “treasure island” anywhere near properly (in sixth grade). Then I also had a teacher pronounce vegetables “vedge tables” during my first year of videregående.
Despite the standard being very low at videregående we were still very hesitant to speak though, which I felt the effect of when I went on interrail two years later. I had a decent vocabulary, but my pronunciation was very awkward. A bit of an own goal that.
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from L-Jay:
Actually, I’m amazed at how well my 14 year old Norwegian niece and nephew can write English. They are much better than me compared to my Norwegian writing…lol. One funny thing is that on my uni paper my Norwegian lecturer has corrected my ‘Australian’ English…lol. I find most Norwegians are better at English than I am – especially grammar. It must be because I don’t actually speak English, I speak Australian.
I’m new to your site, but am enjoying your photos and insights very much. I think your perspective on life as an immigrant is fascinating and I admire your courage! It must be a humbling/frustrating experience to be “on the outside” all the time. Thanks for sharing your life with us.
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from L-Jay:
Vær så god.
Interesting post. I’m a bit worried about this sort of thing as i plan to move to Oslo with my Norwegian samboer next year. I really want to learn the language so I can fit in better (and get a job) but I just hope people understand how difficult it is for an English speaker to reach a high level in Norsk. Not so much because I think the language itself is that hard, but because it will be very hard to speak Norsk without people preferring to communicate in their superior English.
Although I greatly admire Norwegian values and civilisation the flip side of this is unfortunately sometimes a suspicion of outsiders. I understand Norwegians wanting to protect their values and way of life, I just hope as someone who shares these values that I’m accepted and not seen as a threat.
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from L-Jay:
A lot of my immigrant friends are often burdened by being treated as ‘outsiders’. But it really depends on how you personally choose to take things. The happiest way (I think) is to just ‘let it go’. I approach things by seeing everything as a different cultural experience. The more I try to find out what it means to be Norwegian, the less I am bothered by being an ‘outsider’.
But it sounds like you’ve got the right mindset to live in Norway. Trying to see things from a Norwegian’s point of view is good and you have realistic expectations. This is very important as it will certainly help you in your daily Norwegian life.
a land of dichotomies!
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from L-Jay:
@beaverboosh
I think so.
The individual points stand on their own but when collectively looked at the post reveals that no one is left untouched by ‘discrimination’ in Norway.
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The other day I read a job ad that said they only want people aged between 20-30 years. (In Oz and the UK, at least, this is seen as a type of discrimination and is against the law.) This type of thing would normally receive amazing scrutiny but the national job centre was more than happy to post it up.
Here are some clippings from the job – the age group is highlighted:
The job will be displayed until 22 Nov. 2009. I could understand the age limit if they were wanting an apprentice but they aren’t.
L-jay I hear you!
It won’t matter where you are and where you are being a target as a foreigner. it’s always noticeable and painful. it just makes us a bit closer to ourselves and how we behave in our homeland when we see a foreigner! I think that it makes us better people by avoiding such ugly manner.
I have been called on 3 different occassions by a magazine company, when I say “Do you speak English?” They hang up on me every time! I’m glad I am not the only person this happens to… although I do find it odd that they just hang up and don’t even try to communicate with me!
The discrimination to immigrants just shows what stage Norway is at with immigration. There hasn’t been a mass migration to Norway, like there was to the UK in the 50′s. And it is not a colonised nation like Australia or the US. It is understandable, especially from the older generations, who until recently may not have been exposed to other cultures. I think Norway will be a more accepting multi-cultural society in 20-30 years time.
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from L-Jay:
Thanks for sharing – sometimes when I tell people that this phenomenon actually happens they really really want to raise one eyebrow at me…lol. Its’ nice to know it happens to others and it’s not me going crazy…lol.
The Norwegian government is full-on with political correctness, more than most countries, especially when it comes to women’s rights. I think multi-culturalism hasn’t caught on because Norwegians are scared to loose their own culture. There are only 5 million of them and so it would be easy to do. This is one of the reasons why they are always super protective of their language.
That’s one thing I really miss about Australia – celebrating everyone else’s culture.
I want to say that in every country people migrate from day to day and that’s not something new at all.
People migrate and not just to Norway, to other countries as well, because people have a different taste for cultures, geographical zones and weather.
When I travel to a country that I want to live or just for a vacation, I always speak or at least I try to speak in that country’s languace, I think that’s polite for the people in that country.
Not native speaking but I try and that’s a positive impression.
I hate when people( French for example…80%) know only 1 languace and they don’t even know english…
Ok, you love your country and yes you have respect for it and you a very proud but… english is … must and really easy.
No need to have accent or to speak fluent but still…
People posting on english sites in other languaces it’s kinda pathetic.
I love Norway, and I hope one day I will work there as an English-Norvegian teacher.
At the moment I study the 2 languaces at the university.
I am very impresed by the landscapes, I love cold weather, viking storis and of course the civilization.
Cheers and I wish you only the best.
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from L-Jay:
I’d expect countries like France will have to change their language philosophy since they are a member of the EU which has English as an official language. Also, English is known as the ‘international language’ – what happened to love?
Hi,
I am adopted, and I have to say that I was actually very afraid of elderly people when I was small, because as fast as my parents turned their attention away from me, especially elderly people could come up to me and be quite rude and sometimes racist. I was too small to really understand what was going on, understood only that the person didn’t like me. But of course, now when I’m grown up I don’t get this comments anymore, and if that ever should happen, oh, then they will definately regret it! Not until I met my exboyfriends grandparents at the age of 25, did I actually relax around elders – they were something of the sweetest I had ever met. Otherwise, living in Norway is still something I enjoy, and I don’t experience this negative sides as much as when I was a small girl.
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from L-Jay:
I find that Norway is in the same stage of accepting immigrants as Australia was 20 years ago. It’s half and half – half of the country is really welcoming and the other half (if they were allowed to without being ostracised) would scream ‘go home!’. Even though I have given Norway two extra Norwegians and do what I can to contribute to society, every now and then I still get the feeling that I’m an invader.
My Norwegian family is absolutely lovely though. Farmor herself is an ‘immigrant’ from Finland and the family have many friends and family abroad – so when I joined the family they were a little excited that their family connections now spread to the Southern Hemisphere…lol.
We are immigrants in Norway, a family of four. We moved to Norway the last September (but my husband has been working in Norway in the last 5 years as “sommer arbeider”)
In December, our 3 years daughter went to “barnehage”. As a young, unexperienced mother, i was eager to know about my daughter`s behaviour among children who spoke another language, among people she has never met before. Each time i have been answered in Norwegian.(especially by the leader – “styrer”of barnehage, a woman around 60 years old, but very energetic, with an athletic body)
My 2 months time in Norway was not enough for me to learn the language (i was struggling to memorise as many words as possible during the night, when children were asleep).
My frustration intensified as i was returning home every day trying to figure out why i`m beeing answered in Norwegian even if i clearly mentioned a couple of times i dont speak Norwegian.
My husband set at the table face to face with the Styrer one day asking about our daughter. Their conversation was in Norwegian. He also mentioned again that i dont understand the local language.
Even today i am being answered in Norwegian, but lucky me!!! hipp hipp hurra!!!, i have started to understand and use a little of Norw. language myself.
In the place where I live now,village with 1200 people,you can find discrimination towards Norwegians who came to live here also! My daughter experienced a lot of discrimination in the school as much as her Norwegian friends,and they ARE friends because of that discrimination,that feeling connected them.Many people want to leave this place because of that and in same time community is complaining that they desperately need people here and doing nothing to make people feel welcome. If you complain,they will say “Oh,that is not good,we will try do do something”but in real ,they do nothing.We are leaving this place soon,hopefully to some place with more open mind.
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from L-Jay:
You should move to Tromsø!
We came here from Iceland(but we are not Icelandic),and that place is twice more racist than here, about language even more,they have word for everything on their on language (not accepted international like tv or computer,tv-sjonvarp and computer-tolva)and they are only 300 000 on the planet!My daughter saying that here is little bit better with kids in school and this is already hard.
And actually, I would like to move in Tromsø,and my only motivation would be to meet you !
Hei,
First of all LJ thank for this blog its fascinating and helps me to realise i am not alone in struggling to come to terms with Norway. I am a Londoner who moved here six months ago with my Norwegian wife, we met and lived together in Britain, before she decided to come home. I have kind of a different take on the whole discrimination thing. My parents are from the West Indies and emigarted to London in the sixties, so i am following in thier immigration footsteps. What i do find is that when people find out that i am from London their attitude changes, people see me intially as a black male, and some people make assumptions andn think i am out to swindle them, mug them, get them to marry me etc etc. When i start talking and they find out i am from London, everything changes, you can’t stop them talking. So i think on the discrimination front, those us from ‘western’ countries have it easy in this country speaking to friends from Africa and Asia and to some extent Eastern Europe, they get treated appallingly in Norway (and on occasions in Britain as well i hasten to add) I will continue to read you blog with interest, keep up the good work.
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from L-Jay:
Thanks Jermaine. I know that I have it much easier than people from Africa or Asia. I feel a little guilty about that but at the same time I feel lots of pressure because more is expected of me (especially with learning Norwegian). Even though I’m an ‘immigrant’ I often don’t fit in with ‘the immigrants’ because my back ground is so different. With being an Australian in Norway it feels like I don’t fit anywhere. (Come On Aussies, Come On, Come On over to Norway)!
The insecurity with English among certain Norwegians can be useful and hilarious at times. People in authority positions are brought down to a normal level where they are easier to interact with as long as you have a smile on your face.
Using English when stopped in a standard highway police checkpoint can cause them to wave you on rather quicker than normal.
One anecdote I heard was during DUI checkpoint where the policeman kept repeating: “Blow me HARDER!”
He was of course referring to the breathalyzer, but his instructions were so hilarious that blowing harder was interrupted by fits of laughter. Eventually he got a negative reading.
As a Chinese-American, I never noticed much discrimination in Norway, except perhaps when dealing with UDI, where that “we don’t really want you here” feeling is all but inevitable. I don’t know if the negative feelings are more toward asylum seekers (for example, if the lady was pushing a pram, the older woman might have automatically assumed she came here to pop out babies and jump on the social welfare bandwagon, much like many discriminatory Americans might feel toward Mexicans with children).
Also I did notice a number of adopted ethnically Asian young people who have names like stig olav and such; they may be ethnically Korean or Chinese, but are otherwise completely Norwegian in every respect. This must be common as people often spoke to me in Norwegian with every expectation that I would speak Norwegian, even though I obviously looked of Asian descent. I am sure hearing American-style English coming out of my mouth was a surprise for them.
But at the University, I never really experienced any negativity of that sort. If anything, I was questioned from other European students with regard to what Americans were doing in the middle east (this was 2001-03), and once had my American flag stolen from my window by some French kids.
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from L-Jay:
I find that university is a lot different to daily life in Norway. Mixing with average Norwegians who have average jobs and average incomes and average lives, attitudes are a little different. Asylum seekers have it hard as they are seen as getting something for nothing. ‘Import’ immigrants – brides and kids – suffer behind the back gossip. Norwegians don’t approve of people being ‘bought’. And immigrants like me have it hard in being seen as job and language hi-jackers. Because of this people don’t make an effort to help me or to make things easy (for example – they pretend that they don’t know what I’m saying with my pigeon-Norwegian, when in actual fact, they do.) I’m sure if you spoke pigeon-English with an Asia ascent you might have experienced your visit differently. You were also in Norways fourth biggest city, but most Norwegians live in small communities and towns. Imagine what it could have been like if you lived in a small farming community up in the mountains with no immigrants but only asylum seekers – I’m sure your experience would have been different than at Uni.