Norway is a Small Town
I always hear from other immigrants that Norwegians are rude as they don’t talk to you on the street. However, this is always due to the misunderstanding of Norwegian culture and character.
The Norwegian language is about saying something with as little fuss as possible. In English, to be polite when you meet a friend you’d say in one big breath ‘Hi, How are you? I haven’t seen you in ages. You’re looking well. Lost a bit of weight, have you?‘ But in Norwegian to mean the same thing all you need to say is ‘Hei! Takk for sist!‘ (Hi! Thanks for the last time we met.) It’s short, simple and straight to the point. Norwegians are a people of few words that mean a lot.
Over the centuries Norwegians have developed a habit of passing each other in the street without a glance. This may seem rude to non-Norwegians however, in fact, it is not rude but practical. If you meet a friend in the city it would be very silly to stop and have a conversation when it is below freezing temperatures, snowing and blowing a gail. Shaking hands with thermal gloves, nodding your head in your thick heavy hood and smiling behind your scarf can all be missed by even the canniest of body language watchers. So everyone in Norway have collectively agreed that the best way to handle the situation is to save it for a more appropriate time.
But since living in Tromsø, I’ve discovered a third reason for not being ‘polite’. Quite often I find myself ducking behind the apples in the grocery store or looking the other way in a one way street when I see particular people. This is not because I’m being rude, in fact, I’m being helpful. Confused? When you live in a Norwegian city long enough (I’ve been in Tromsø for two years now) you get to know a fair amount of people. But not just ordinary people, people who have seen you at your most vulnerable – doctors, nurses, midwives, dentists, gynaecologist, microbiologists, physiologists etc. People who have seen you inside out or who know your embarrassing secrets. There isn’t a week that goes by that I don’t see someone that has had something to do with the birth of my children. On the barge to Alta I saw the midwife who delivered Lilu. While shoe shopping I saw my family doctor. While at the movies I saw the hospital gynaecologist. Imagine if you have grown up in Tromsø all your life – all your doctors and nurses are likely to be your High School classmates! So, I politely ignore them and they politely ignore me back.
Because of doctor-patient confidence it is awkward if a doctor comes up to you at the shops and says ‘Hi, L-Jay. How’s that gangrene coming along?’ What else does a doctor know about you other than your medical problems? So to save both of you the trauma of the conversation we ignore each other. That’s perfectly fine with me, and that seems to be perfectly fine with everyone else. This is a ‘small town’ mentality. When you can meet each other five times a day how many ‘hellos’ does it take to be ridiculous? And since practically all of Norway is one big small town (if a Norwegian doesn’t live in a small town then they at least grew up in one) one can appreciate the Norwegian culture of street etiquette.
So since Norwegian culture has good reason to exclude ‘polite chit-chat’ with friends, neighbours, acquaintances etc you are welcome to ignore them too. Of course, this ‘ignorance’ is not strict protocol in Norway. If you say ‘hi’ to someone out of the blue they will likely smile, or even say ‘hi’ back but don’t get offended if you don’t even get a nod as no reaction could possibly be the most considerate politeness of all.
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This is very interesting to know. BTW, I’m connecting with even more of my Norwegian relatives on Facebook. I met another cousin named Odd who lives in Oslo. I love this.
Blessings to you,
Debbie
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from L-Jay:
That’s great!
I think everything is much much easier – most part of norwegian population are simply degenerates – after ages of marrying they cousins. In addition to that strong alcohol abuse.
Hi, the very fact that you feel the need to defend the average norwegian makes it obvious that you have noticed it too. Being from the south of norway I always here from northerners that people from the north are much more friendly and open. That goes against your “theory”. I think the explanation is much simpler, we have lost our manners over the last few generations, and “janteloven” is stronger than ever. If your “article” had been published on April 1st, I would have thought it was brilliant. PS born and bred Norwegian – its a curse.
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from L-Jay:
I must say that there are certain immigrant groups that find Norwegians especially unfriendly. My friends from South America, particularly Brazil, always have something to say about a Norwegian’s ‘coldness’. People who have a strong culture of community are generally the ones who suffer the Norwegian culture most. But I also find a lot of Englishmen complaining about Norwegians. (In Australia we call them ‘whinging-poms’
) However, the same things are also said about New Yorkers and Londoners. I think for immigrants they need to accept that Norway isn’t like their home country if they want to survive. Norway has different customs – it seems that everyone thinks Norway should have the same greeting culture as the US or UK. In fact, in Australia it is custom for Aboriginals to look down to the ground when an elder is talking to them. This causes problems as English speakers think they are disrespectful as their own custom is to look at the person that is talking. My point is, there is no right or wrong, just different. Just because foreigners don’t like the way the Norwegian culture behaves doesn’t mean it is wrong, it is just different. The Norwegian culture has the right to exist just the same as the American, British or German.
Whenever I go back to Australia I come across situations that make me shake my head about my own countrymen and think ‘thank goodness I live in Norway and Norwegians aren’t like this’.
Just a thought to throw it out there: Racism doesn’t only apply to race but also culture. But maybe to highlight the fact we should describe negativeness towards a peoples culture ‘culture-ism’. (lol- I don’t know – is there a word out there for it?)
Hi L-Jay,
I love your blog. This website has kept me sane in my first few months here in Norge. Thank you so much for the plethora of info and the humor to go with it. In response to your question.. cultural sensitivity is a term i learned in my sociology courses back in America that refers to a person respecting the customs and traditions of other cultures. So i guess a lack of cultural sensitivity or a lack of cultural awareness would be a good way to explain what you are talking about. Anyways, I look forward to reading more.
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from L-Jay:
Also I think it is relative to what your own culture is. I think it is easier for me to adjust to Norwegian culture than say Korean because my culture is similar. (I know I’m stating the obvious…lol)
I think the origin is the way Norway developed into a modern nation. Further south, flatter countries had their populations grow, with the people-density increasing gradually over time.
So the conversational social lubrication developed along with the population and the language. Really densly populated countries such as the UK and Japan also has the greatest orientation towards politeness in their languages.
Norway developed differently. Geography, emigration and generally low carrying capacity ensured that the population density remained low untill modern times, when roads, tunnels and modern communications thrust people into closer contact than the culture was adaped to.
Norwegians have responded with increasing the importance of giving each other space, and not imposing. This is even mor pronunced in larger towns and cities, where the culturally unnatural closeness is at the greatest.
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from L-Jay:
That is perfect! Thank you, Jan. I wish I had of said that
. And yes, it is so true – ‘space’ is a gift in Norway.
Even in the biggest city you can walk right in the heart without having anyone near you within a ten metre radius. When we lived in London I felt suffocated as you were always close enough to everyone that you bumped shoulders. (The tube was an interesting experience – packed in like sardines, but there was certainly no politeness there…lol)
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from L-Jay:
Dear Helen
We do not accept comments from trolls on mylittlenorway. Your comment has been deleted. Next time you will be blocked from our website.
I’d agree with the part of the theory where you say we’re used to looking up and standing about on the street being rewarded with a face full of rain/sleet/snow. Not sure people worry much about meeting their physician though, at least I don’t.
As long as I’m indoors, I don’t mind stopping and having a chat (but I generally don’t assume people have the time for it).
I’ll agree with Jan too, space is valued.
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from L-Jay:
What you said there I think is another good insight into why Norwegians don’t stop to say ‘hi’:I generally don’t assume people have the time for it
This is the politeness I was talking about when I wrote ‘no reaction could possibly be the most considerate politeness of all‘. I reckon Norwegians don’t think to themselves ‘I better say ‘hi’ to be nice’, but I do reckon they think ‘they look rushed, I’ll let them be’. As mentioned, Norwegians value privacy and space so when they give it to you it is a great gesture. This is the opposite of English culture. In English culture we are taught that it is rude not to say ‘hi’. I really like the ‘respectful quietness’ that Norwegians have.
I’m still trying to figure out what it means to be Norwegian – I think I’m one step closer
spot on! on everything. From last century until today why has changes but still is true! <3
I think we all just have to come to grips with the fact that Norwegians are on the unfriendly/rude side of human nature. And that’s OK, it’s just the way they are. There’s no need to make excuses for their behaviour as every foreigner will see it as just that – excuses.
But as a foreigner, it is disheartening when even the simplest of greetings or gestures are nowhere to be seen. ‘Good morning’ or a smile only takes one second! I’m sure everyone can fit that into their schedules, even if they are rushed or they are your doctor. And let’s face it, I think Norway could use a few more smiles… as a smile can brighten even the darkest day!
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from L-Jay:
Hi LittleL
This is going to be a long one, bare with me…lol:
I think the discussion is more about culture not excuses. Norwegians have a different culture of greetings that seem to offend foreigners. It’s just the same when the English settlers to Australia got offended at the Aboriginals because they looked to the ground when spoken to. You only get offended if you let yourself get offended. ‘Offence’ is taken by the foreigner. The Norwegian doesn’t give them ‘offence’. (By no means em I saying you are offended
)
In my post I was talking facetiously – the ‘politeness’ issue is great for satire.
The post was talking about strangers but all my Norwegian friends and acquaintances are the most hospitable of people. When ever they see me on the street or in the shop they greet me with a hug and kiss and stop for a minute or so to chat. (This never happens when it is snowing or raining outside, though, for good reason.) But I think foreigners, when they say Norwegians are impolite, are talking about ‘the stranger’ not their friends – the shop keeper, the bus driver, the postman and the Norwegian sitting next to them on the bench – medical practitioners was who I focused on in the post. However, I’m starting to realise that Norwegians just don’t say ‘hi’ and walk away as that is impolite. It seems if a Norwegian is going to say ‘hi’ to someone it is only the beginning of the conversation. Saying ‘hi’ is the introduction which then must have a body and a conclusion. Because Norwegians ‘invest’ in the conversation they need to decide whether it is appropriate – ‘Does this person have time to chat? Do I have time to chat?’
I guess this is an odd problem for a foreigner but I’m finding Norwegians can’t stop striking up a conversation with me (hence, the irony of the post). Because of Lilu Norwegians always strike up a conversation with me all the time – on the bus, at the shops, in the park. Little children really open a Norwegian up.
Speaking Norwegian is always awkward as I’d prefer just to say ‘hi’ and move on as my Norwegian isn’t that good to hold a conversation. However, the Norwegian has invested so… Some Norwegians convert to English but others are older and don’t know English. We have extreme light conversation (because of me) and then end with a series of ‘ha dets’ to both help Lilu understand good-byes. A lot of times I prefer Norwegians not to say ‘hi’ as I don’t want to go through the awkward conversation – and yes, I feel embarrassed that I don’t know Norwegian enough yet.
Come to think of it, only one person struck up a conversation with me in the street when I lived in London. I remember it because it was very odd. Also, in Australia you don’t talk to strangers as you don’t want to teach your kids to talk to strangers. You’d get a ‘hi’ from shop keepers as it’s good for business – capitalism runs on ‘politeness’. In America the only reason someone said ‘hi’ to me on the street was because they were trying to sell me something.
But I think this subject needs to be investigated more. Most of the time I don’t understand why foreigners complain so much about this. For me, it’s not about complaining but figuring out why Norwegians are like this so I can understand them better. I want to know what a Norwegian is.
The discussion is about Norwegians not saying ‘hi’ to stranger-foreigners but what about foreigners themselves? Do they say ‘hi’ first? I know I don’t because when you say ‘hi’ to a Norwegian it means you’re starting a conversation – and I can’t carry one in Norwegian yet…lol.
But now I’m really curious about this whole business. I think a social study must be done.
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From Moose:
Just my two øre:
If you read the post A Social Norwegian you will also see that the culture of not saying hello is largely based on context. Saying hi to someone (and possibly striking up a small conversation) out in the woods is expected as you know you have something in common with the person: enjoying nature. We only initiate contact with someone if we intend to finish what we started.
Thanks for clarifying. I am living on the countryside near Hamar and have found all of my husbands friends and acquaintances to be extremely hospitable. They always are very good with saying hello and goodbye and making you feel welcome. Therefore, I have to agree that culturally speaking, there is a lot of warmth among the nativie norsk people. I have lived in some big cities, Barcelona in Espana and Miami in Florida (USA). Whenever you come across a stranger greetings were uncommon aside from a passing glance or smile. Therefore, I would say it is pretty normal for strangers to “ignore” each other. However, I have been told that different regions of Norway have very distinct cultures so the friendliness I have experienced where I am may not be a national custom.
i don’t think it is fair to say that “Norwegians are on the unfriendly/rude side of human nature.”
It is assigning a friendliness/politeness score to a cultural trait that is not actually related to friendliness and politeness. And it is doing so by assuming that the authors viewpoint is the cultural “standard” by which other cultures should be measured.
You might as well say: “I think we all have to come to grips with the fact that the British are on the unfriendly/rude side of human nature, because of the way they are constantly trying to impose on your time and attention with non sequiteurs”
It is exactly the same statement, but assuming that the other cultural viewpoint is the universally true measuring standard. Which is the error of course, neither viewpoint is valid in a different culture.
Consider how Brazillians often consider the UK to be full of cold and reserved people. Or see it from the viewpoint of the Japanese. It is all different social dances, but none is more “rude” or “unfriendly” that any other.
Actually I think it probably is fair. I say that because so many of my Norwegian family and friends who have lived abroad say it. I also base it on the fact that Scandinavians in general have very little of what most other modern worlds consider to be manners. Scandinavian culture is quite selfish in nature, pushing head of other people in line at the slightest opportunity, bumping into other people and not saying excuse me (or some variant), standing there watching an old lady struggle with something heavy without offering her some kind of assistance. Very little affection towards small children. And I especially agree that Janteloven is still prevalent in Norwegian society. All the friendly/bubbly Norwegians my wife and I know and are friends with are either married to a foreigner (particularly American, English, etc) or many of them were simply exchange students to the U.S. and in the process became aware that there is a different way and just plain don’t care to socialize the Norwegian way any more. There are 2 types of rude Norwegians in Norway, the ones who do it because that’s all they have ever experienced and the self centered Janteloven type that has held the country back for decades and is rude just because they are self centered. I think what L-Jay experienced with the abundance of friendliness is just how those Norwegians would like to be if their society didn’t force withdrawn, could shoulder type manners onto them from birth. Once they get to know you they don’t feel like they have to hide their true self. I through my own experiences, and also through my wife have a love/hate relationship with Norwegians. The Norwegians I like I love and feel sorry for them having to grow up in a society that doesn’t allow them to be an individual and bloom in their own way. The ones that create this kind of society with their dark ages Janteloven mentality I wouldn’t take a whiz on if they were on fire.
on behalf of norwegians I have to say I am sorry for your excperiense (I am not good in writeing english so excuse my bed spelling!) and i hope you’ll have better days to come. I do know some of it is true, but i also know it’s not
I shoul love to introduse you to my friends and family and you would see it for your self
Hope you can meet some realy nice norwegian some day… Take care!
Forgive me! I did not mean to offend.. perhaps I had my cranky pants on that day
I should have said that us foreigners need to come to grips with the fact that Norwegians do it differently – and that is perfectly OK. My husband is forever telling me that I’m a ‘kverulant’, I don’t mean to be… I promise! I just like to point out all sides of a story. Plus you should take everything I say with a grain of salt as I am currently living in Australia, and my longest stint in Norway has only been 3 months. (We are moving to Bergen in May 2010 – excitement!)
I like your analogy L-Jay, regarding the Aboriginals and English settlers… but it is somewhat like comparing apples and oranges. Norwegian culture shares many facets with it’s European neighbours as well as places like Australia and North America. In my opinion that is the root of the problem. While there are many similarities, Norway does not seem to share the same protocol for being polite in the same manner as the majority do. (Norwegian doesn’t even have the word ‘please’ – the epitome of politeness. Vær så snill is close but not the same).
Yes I agree with you that it is the strangers who foreigners deem unfriendly. (If my friends were unfriendly then surely they are not my friends). It is therefore tough to make a new friend when the friendly thing to do is to not talk to someone! (Now it’s my turn to be facetious
).
I’m wondering if Espen has done a lot of international travel? I recently had a Norwegian friend stay with me for two weeks while he was on his 6-month world tour. By the time he got to Australia he said to me, “I’m starting to realise that other countries are far more polite than us Norwegians. When I get home I’m going to start being polite and hopefully it will catch on”. Consequently when he got home, he took a visit to his mother and after only staying with her a few days she had already told him to stop saying ‘undskyld’ all the time as it was ridiculous and irritating
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from L-Jay:
Norwegians inside the country are very different to Norwegians outside the country…lol. Norwegians tend to be placid in Norway (a lot of them live in small towns so they must watch there behaviour). But it’s well known that when a Norwegian is out of the country they ‘let loose’. They become the little rager at the party…lol. I met several Norwegians when I was in Oz. They were such wild party-goers but now when I meet them in Norway, to catch up on Oz-times, they are much calmer. Norwegians haven’t really been able to tell me why yet but I guess they feel free when they travel
.
I actually wonder how my kids will cope with being taught to be polite. Being an Aussie I can’t help it as this is one of the first things you are taught (by everyone) as a child. Lilu’s first words were Hei Hei, Har det, (Tusan) Takk, Vær så godt and Unnskyld. (It would be interesting to know
.
the first words of a child with both parents Norwegian.) Saying ‘thank you’ and ‘your welcome’ are a part of our family life. I wonder how much of a difference this will make to my kids upbringing in Norway – I’m sure it will help more thant hinder, though they might get picked on at school. It seems that the polite kids in Oz are always the first to be picked on. Being polite as a kid can be seen as weak to other kids and an easy target. I guess even in school there is a time and place to be polite. The rule is: Just don’t do it in front of the bullies
I find that ‘vær så snill’ isn’t used that much as it is too much to say, rather ‘takk’ is used instead. It’s like saying ‘Can you pass the peas, thanks’. But as an example of how politeness isn’t needed in Norway: English-speakers use the modalverb ‘can’ in ‘Can you pass the peas, please’ as this is a polite addition to the sentence ‘you pass the peas’ (this sounds like a command). In Norwegian, as an English speaker I’d say ‘Kan du send ertene, takk’ (Can you pass me the peas, thanks) but this is awkward Norwegian. The proper way of saying the sentence is ‘Send ertene, takk’ (meaning: Pass the peas, please). To English ears this isn’t the politest way it can be said but thats how the Norwegian language is constructed (remember ‘they once were Vikings’
)
@LittleL Don’t worry, we all wear those trousers at times:)
The thing to remember about the Norwegian social behavior is that it isn’t actually evolved for or properly adapted to rubbing shoulders with large numbers of people you don’t know. Many other nations get better cultural toolkits for that, because their nations have simply had to deal with strangers close up for a much longer time.
Look at Norwegians getting on a bus, for example: Total chaos. This is because it has penetrated that the normal custom of giving everyone lots of space isn’t going to work. Imagine a lot of Norwegians in our normal “avoidance” mode truing to all get on a bus! It would be mortifying! Or….quite possibly hillarious.
But the point is that the normal protocol have been suspended, but there haven’t been any situational new one developed to replace it yet. Because it is all new.
It is not rudeness, though, because there is no wish to offend behind it. And it is not impolite because it is perfectly in accordance with the currently running protocolls for politeness.
And the Please/vær så snill thing is a perfect illustration. It takes three words in Norwegian to get something close to “please”.
You can still talk to people, you just need a good opening subject.
@L-Jay: Yes, Norwegians do tend to act up a bit when in a foreign country. A few 18-35 hollidays, and a 1000 years later the locals are still sore about it!
I was driving around the UK coast with some friends, and someone remarked that the older churches were all built so they couldn’t be seen from the sea. And everyone turned to me and went “And that is your fault”
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from L-Jay:
lol
–
My first encounter with real Norwegians was when I was hired to film a Scandinavian club annual party in Australia. Crazy, crazy people. The Norwegians, Swedish, Danish and Icelanders were competing against each other in beer drinking, making toilet paper Viking helmets, and playing crash-derby with their makeshift Viking ships. The night was a blast. I couldn’t film much as everyone kept dragging me up to the dance floor. I certainly had great expectations coming to Norway but alas, there has been no such party yet.
A very interesting discussion. Another perspective being Norwegian would be how I reacted on a trip to the US at around age 20.
At first I found people to be overly polite to the point where I almost flushed and tried to emulate their ways (saying sorry for everything or asking please before any questions etc). After a while I grew to resent the politeness a bit, this is due to the perception that it was not in fact politeness it was all a big scam! They were rude and uninterested and hid it behind all these pleasentries (Note: I’ve learned better since).
The best example of what completely perplexed me was when the people I were living me kept asking me “Hi, how are you doing?” and I launched into a hearty conversation about just how I was doing and by my second line they had moved on and left me alone. I remember being quite offended. To me it was a completely foreign aspect to ask someone how they are and then not bother to stick around to hear the answer, or at least feign interest in it if you asked in the first place.
I would assume such a culture should would work both ways.
Beyond that I am a proto-norse in that I can and will cross the street in an effort to avoid the discomfort of not knowing whether I should stop and talk with someone I know “a bit” or just keep walking. And yes, babies make me smile.
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from L-Jay:
An excellent comment in revealing the truth about Norwegians! If this was in the ‘A Guide to Norway’ it would be genius. You know, I was always considered rude by one of my ex-boyfriend’s mothers. She was so scary that every time I met her my voice would hide inside my throat and I couldn’t even manage a ‘hi’…lol.
I agree that there are Norwegians out of the country and Norwegians within it; however, reserved (within) isn’t bad. Since I insisted on speaking (terrible) Norwegian to them, they understood that I wanted to learn about them and their country.
The first party I went to after arriving in Oslo, they respected my wishes, even though after a couple of hours my ears literally hurt from trying to comprehend. They didn’t laugh at me either — unless I came out with something really bizarre, after which they would explain where I went so very wrong.
The only day a stranger spoke to me on the street in Oslo was hilarious. At the time I had blonde hair to my waist and incredible green contact lenses. That’s when I found out about Huldra. He’d never actually seen one before. I tucked my tail under my skirt and continued on.
I agree that Americans, for instance, hide behind pleasantries. We’re also masters at euphemisms. When I’m ready, I shall die, not “pass away” — but I won’t be offended at “kick the bucket”, “buy the farm”, or “pushing up daisies”. That’s just me.
In seven years I don’t ever remember a Norwegian being rude to me. Now, that’s a record. Happens every day around here.
I’ve been in Norway for about 14 months having previously lived in Asia and different parts of Europe. I must confess to initially being astonished as to the general lack of enthusiasm and interest Norwegians demonstrated towards many aspects of social behaviour. I wouldn’t say this is exclusive to Norway, but rather reflects the mentallity required to survive cold winters! I find Norwegians rarely ask questions to outsiders and often turn a blind eye to them because they do not want to be seen as intrusive. For the outsider, it makes it very difficult to establish genuine friendship. As has been documented, most Norwegians are from small places and are therefore not particularly used to being in situations of meeting new people. It is a cultural issue that the foreigner must adapt to and accept because Norwegians, strange though they may seem to some, are genuine, honest people with distinct and strong traditions. Play by their rules and things will be good!
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from L-Jay:
Well said. Playing by their rules is how you can win the game!
This site is definitely showing me some new sides of Norway
My boyfriend was born and raised in Bærum, near Oslo and some of this seems quite different to his opinions and experiences.
Really, there’s far more than just culture that shapes a person into being what might be considered rude or not. Background, beliefs, age, personality, & circumstance all impact on us, within each culture. So for every person we meet, inside or outside of our own, we find a new experience, which makes it very difficult to make generalisations about any culture.
In short, there’s obviously plenty of awesome people and plenty of jerks in every culture, so you’re sure to bump into both if you spend enough time there
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from L-Jay:
It’s funny what Norwegians say about each other too – it’s the same as in Oz: Southern folk are snobs and northern folk are hicks (same as city and country folk in Oz). lol. I bet your boyfriend would surely know what other Norwegian’s think about people who come from the west side of Oslo.
I think when it comes to the question of whether Norwegians are friendly or not comes down to how many experiences you have had. If you’ve had one snobbery experience can you say Norway is impolite? What if you have had 10 or 50? What if in every social encounter you sense some sort of bias. These generalisations can be rationalised into nothing but when you have personally gone through unfriendly experiences every single week you have lived in Norway, and all your immigrant friends have had the same challenges, then I think it can be said that outsiders (and even insiders) think Norwegians are unfriendly and sometimes rude. These experiences are not just one offs, here and there – they are experienced daily. And, if I noticed it being from a western country, imagine how much non-western immigrants would be effected by it too.
Oslo is considered one of the most unfriendliest places in Norway, even by other Norwegians. However, Oslo-folk think they are quite cosmopolitan. But I notice a remarkable difference of ‘friendliness’ between Northerners and Oslo-folk. If I had only knew Norway through just living in Oslo, I would never have stayed. It was only when I moved to the country that I felt welcomed and at home.
I pretty much expect every country I visit to be less friendly than Aus, purely because people who travel here make that comment. But I will say that I found my experience in Norway to be a vast improvement on my experience in the Netherlands! Though I haven’t spent enough time in either country, and it makes a difference if you’re just visiting or living there.
The way I see it is that Norwegians are free to bag out Norway and their fellow countrymen, just as we Aussies do with each other. But if I say something about Norwegians being rude, Andreas is quickly on the defensive, and that’s fair enough. I am just the same when I hear negative comments on Australians.
The point is that it’s hard to nail down what makes a ‘typical Norwegian’ or ‘typical Australian’ etc. because the culture varies so much within one country. For instance, when I read things here and ask Andreas about it, he often says “That must be a northern thing, cos I don’t know anyone who does that..” It probably doesn’t vary as much in Aus, but I know I was quick to make sure Andreas became a “Qld-Australian” in that he harbours the appropriate hatred for NSW
He in turn has taught me the various stereotypes within Norway to have fun with:
*West Oslo/Bærum – Rich, think they’re better than everyone.
*East Oslo – Immigrant central.
*South Norway – Highly religious.
*West Norway – Loudmouths.
*North Norway – Hillbillies.
*Mid Norway – Mixture of the above.
Being a country girl myself, I’m enjoying getting to know North Norway, and I imagine I’d find it more comfortable up that way. However, Andreas will be eager to keep my allegiance with the south, or more specifically Bærum, cos they’re so much better than everyone
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from L-Jay:
There seems to be a great divide between the North and South. I find Northern Norway folk are very similar to Australians, especially Queenslanders. But when we sand-gropers pick on the cockroaches it is still out of lovable-fun. But here, there is an angrier and harder tone between the North and South. The North clearly doesn’t like Oslo. There is all this talk about how Oslo sabotaged the North to get the Olympics and other events. There is also a facebook group to become a separate state (and some want a separate country) because they say the North financially supports the South but as the South is the political centre it gets to dish out how much money the North gets – which is less than the South. There is even talk about how people in Oslo can’t understand other dialects in the country and so everyone else has to adapt to Oslo dialect so Oslo-folk can understand.
However, I do find that the camaraderie between Sweden and Norway is similar to NZ and Aus. They pick on each other but with love (and they both like to pick on poor old Denmark together…lol).
I lived in Oslo for over a year before living in the North and there is a remarkable difference of ‘friendliness’ between the two. You get tagged as ‘immigrant’ more in Oslo and they don’t like immigrants (more than the North) as they seem to think that immigrants are taking over. 25% of Oslo are immigrants which is huge. Norway seems to be 20 years behind Australia in ‘multiculturalism’. They don’t want it and don’t care for it but the government is pushing for it and so Norwegians get it shoved down their throats. (I lived in Melbourne for over seven years which has really been ‘multicultural’ for at least 15 years.) Sure Norwegians in general are friendly to tourists and one off visitors – that is because they buy things and then return home – but the immigrants that stay have a much harder time of it – especially if you are an asylum seeker or import bride. If I was from a third world country I would feel the ‘unfriendliness’ a lot more. This is because many Norwegians are still ‘purists’. When the next generation grows up things should change but until then the immigrants now have to suffer through the ‘leave your traditions and culture at the border’ integration policy.
But at the moment, it just erks Oslo-folk that they have a new dialect that is now popular with all the kids – ‘kebab-Norwegian’. You guessed it – Norwegian with a Turkish accent…lol.
As a south-western Norwegian (farm territory in the edge of the bible belt) I’d like to point out that most of Norway that is not Oslo or near Oslo-vicinity generally dislikes Oslo and the culture there. The whole “north” vs “south” thing is not really so much north vs south as Oslo and area vs the rest of Norway. I suspect part of it is the percieved “Poor country folk and their backward ways” attitude, be it legitimate or not.
The fact that political and largely economical power resides there also makes it an easy target for any grievance any outlying areas might have.
I’ve always defiantly defended that Norwegians in general do not discriminate against foreigners, but that was more rooted in my own disbelief that such discrimination still existed in my country, and didn’t identify with it myself. Sadly, immigrant workers and asylum seekers probably face discrimination quite often. I still, however, maintain that there should be less of this outside the general vicinity of Oslo.
–
As for the separate state thing for the north of Norway, that was more of a joke suggestion rooted in frustration over the whole olympics deal, where Oslo and Tromsø amongst other towns competed for becoming Norways applicant. Once Tromsø won over Oslo, it was felt that the powers that be in Oslo sabotaged Norways chances as a whole.
“Poor country folk and their backward ways””
That poor country Norwegian with backwards ways has some excellent English language skills.
I would have never known you weren’t from an English speaking country had you not said it yourself.
I forgot to put this in:
“When the next generation grows up things should change but until then the immigrants now have to suffer through the ‘leave your traditions and culture at the border’ integration policy”
I could be shooting myself in the foot here, but I still maintain a: if you want to live in Norway, you should embrace or at least respect our culture.
Hoping that turned out the way and with the inflection it had when I tested it out in my head.
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from L-Jay:
I think Norway’s choice of words in its immigration policies gives a good idea of the changing thoughts of Norwegians. No less than five years ago they used the word ‘assimilation’ but now they use the word ‘integration’. ‘Assimilation’ is about ‘becoming’ or one dissolving into the other – being absorbed – but ‘integration’ is about ‘bringing together’ as a whole, to unite – equal. I am a little excited about this change. I saw Australia go through it and now I get to see Norway appreciate Norwegians with different heritages. But there are still some interesting case studies. I was actually reading a section from an imdi PDF last night that addresses some of this stuff:
From the imdi.no
That is a very interesting read, thank you. =)
Found these writings interesting and some humorous. My four maternal grt grandparents all came from different areas in Norway as young children and finally settled in the Red River Valley of Minnesota in USA. Much of the Norwegian culture has been diluted over the generations, but the pride of being Norwegian is still alive.
I had to smile as I read the piece about the view that Norwegians are thought to be rude, since many of my friends who have moved from Arizona or other parts of the US say they thought we were very serious, reserved and not friendly. Until they had been here for awhile and saw how warm and friendly we are. We just don’t want to look pushy or “too” nosey. I joke we don’t talk a lot because we know better than to keep our mouths open too long in the cold winters or during mosquito season lol.
No one brags about helping others here, so it doesn’t make news much when neighbors or sometimes people from across the state arrive to harvest a farmer’s crops when he is ill or unable to do it. We were doing pay it forward before the media made it a big thing
Thanks for all the great reads.
This is going to be a long comment, I am apologizing for this.
I have been reading this blog for some time, and finally I decided to comment on something, as this particular topic of “Norwegian politeness/unpoliteness” really plots me.
@some time ago, Jan said:
“neither viewpoint is valid in a different culture.”
I must agree with this. But only partly. I am now going to make a drastic example, to prove my point:
From German peoples perspective, killing Jews during and before the II world war, was a justified action. From every other normal peoples viewpoint or perspective, this kind of viewpoint is insane, and lunatic. So there are a different viewpoints, and different cultures, but there is something that has and can be called – a universal viewpoint – culture, and in the following case, it can easily be connected with bon ton:
I understand that Norway had, and still has very small population of people, spread around the country, and that the density of the population was, and still is very small; Therefore this was beautifully said by Jan: “So the conversational social lubrication developed along with the population and the language.” Also, Norwegian live in harsh, and very sharp climate, and the climate itself shapes people. Norway, has never been a imperial force(the state itself not the Vikings in the medievil times), that had colonies, and regarding that they did not interfere and had contact with other nations and countries on higher scale (we do not count Danish and Swedish domination when talking about this, because their cultures, are similar to Norwegian). Also like you said, one of the reasons for not getting into “conversational social lubrication”, is because they are very polite – they think that by starting a conversation with someone, would take much of time, of the companions time. Which is really, nice and polite.
But,… there is something which can be called – universal culture, or it can be connected with bon ton:
It is a fact that a lot of foreigners live in Norway, or it will still come to live in it. There are many reasons for this:
Norway is one of the most secure (among the lowest dead rates on the world-if not the lowest) sensitive and righteous country. You spend a lot of money for the benefit of health and educational system (now, we are not going to discuss about high tax rates here), Norway gives the highest amount of money in the world to the foreign aid each year, in comparison to the number of its citizens. Norway accepts people from the war endangered areas, when other nations do not (Tamil people from Sri Lanka, Palestinians…). And so on, and so on… So lot of these foreigners came to your country because you truly wanted to help them, even when their home countries or any other western countries did not wanted. Also other number of foreigners came to your country as a labour force – highly-qualified or unqualified. Labor force that you need in order to keep it going like this. People that are doctors, engineers, nurses, cleaners, and people that do things that you can not, do not know how, or do not want to.
Now, my point is not in saying that Norwegians are not dependable or dependable on foreigners, but in this: Norway is a modern country (or at least it is trying to became one), western country, country that has been voted by UN as the best country in the world to live in for the last couple of years. And Norway is a country with a lot of foreigners (#################). Foreigners are here, they live with you, it does not matter if they came because they needed you or you needed them, or if they came because you gave them a generous opportunity to start a new life out of the wars and its horrors, or they came as an experts in some field of work. The important thing is that they are here, and they live with you, and it looks like more and more of them is going to come (like I said, for this reason or another). And if those people – foreigners (from all around the globe) can understand something that can be called “universal culture”, than you (the natives) can too. If you can not than it will be good to take it as granted and accept it. An example:
When you see your doctor/dentist/barber/neighbor somewhere outside – a person that you know, a simple “Hi” would be enough.
When you enter to the one of those small glass shelters on the small train stations (stops), and you see an unknown person is already in there, and there is nobody around, just two of you, it is in the spirit of universal culture to say “Hi”. And that’s it! There is no need for conversation, this is something that is connected with the bon ton. So I want to make this clear: I am not supporting all the complainings of all the foreigners in Norway. The foreigners need to realize, that Norway is not a Brazil, or UK, or Japan, and that it will never be (well if it, for some reason becomes one day-because of all this globalization, the world is going to be a really dull place). It is a Norway, this is why it is a separate country. Because it has its own people, with its own customs and rules. So nobody is asking you (the natives) to assimilate with the foreigners or allow them to invade your culture and customs. Just to accommodate and embrace some basic rules of an universal culture – a simple “Hi” on the street, when you see some particular person, that you already know (or you do not, like it is the case I mentioned – at the train station shelters) would be enough and a splendid accommodation. Also do not cross the street when you see somebody that you know. I realize that all this fuzz about being rude and unpolite, is in fact not it, and the reasons for this are quite opposite. But the result is the one that matters in this thing, not the cause. Norwegians realy are: genuine, honest, with strong traditions. And of course foreigners need to embrace and respect your culture. But this does not mean, that you can not act like most of the rest nations when it comes to the universal viewpoint-culture. A simple “Hi” and not crossing the street would be simply enough.
After all, forget about the foreigners in your country. Take a look at this issue, as this: “modern state” attribute is not strictly related to the industry and science, as some often think. It is also related to the people and their gestures and culture.
Cheers
P.S.
By the way L.J. – great work, I love your topics and comments, you are really a gentle flower in the field of blogs and its writers. You could start a successful journalist carrier very easily, you have the knowledge, imaginations and spirit above all, for that kind of business. Good work lady, keep it like this.
the ###### sign in my previous reply was suppose to be this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Demography
“According to Statistics Norway (SSB), a record 61,200 immigrants arrived in the country in 2007—35% higher than 2006. At the beginning of 2010, there were 552,313 persons in Norway with an immigrant background (i.e. immigrants, or born of immigrant parents), comprising 11.4% of the total population.”
Which is astonishing number. I am not going to mention all this Sami and Kven, people, and the ones which now address them selfs as Norwegians people (due to Norwegianization) but in fact are Sami and Kven people.
This has been an interesting read, for sure. I am about to embark on my ‘Norwegian adventures’ by moving to Norway to marry my Norwegian fiancé, live and work there and start a new chapter in my life. I am American.
I visited Norway in the past and really loved it, though I know there is a big difference in being a tourist rather than an actual resident. I lived in Sweden previously and I speak Swedish, so the language barrier won’t be that difficult for me, and I am experienced with Nordic ways and culture, so I don;t think I will find too many culture shocks. Having said that, there are differences. I find Norwegians to be a lot more proud of their country than the Swedes are proud of theirs, at least, in terms of displaying it. I liked that about the Norwegians.
I am from the southern US, where manners and politeness are expected and reinforced generation after generation, but I often found it very syrupy, fake and unnatural for me. I’ve been living in the Midwest USA for twelve years now and the same thing applies here — this Midwestern “niceness” — although not as sugar-coated and ‘invasive’ as the Southern form. When I lived in Sweden and travelled throughout Scandinavia, I felt as if I was naturally ‘one of them’ because I have a high level of self-propriety, I’m reserved in public, I’m not one for small talk, and I don’t generally speak to strangers just for the sake of conversation. Sometimes in the US, it’s as if total strangers feel this need to talk to each other just because they are in the same proximity and find silences “awkward”. I don’t. A Norwegian once said to me that, “everyone has a right to talk to you, but you also have a right NOT to be talked to”. I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes my fiancé and I can be out and about and just not feel the need to keep each other in conversation. It’s just so natural for us and neither one of us feels insecure or aware of it. In any case, I welcome the “distance” with Norwegians as I am very much like this myself. I know I would be at my wit’s end in South America or southern Europe, with their ways of interacting. Constantly having people in my face, in my business, being loud, thinking I’m “rude” for keeping to myself, etc. No way. But based on my experiences, once you get to know Norwegians, they are warm, endearing, hospitable, honest and genuine… which is what I’m like once you get to know me, too.
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from L-Jay:
Actually, since I wrote this post I have lived in Norway for a couple more years now. Now I’m an ‘insider’ and things are a little different. In my own culture (Australian) once you know someone well, you don’t have to say ‘hello’ to them every day, especially when you walk into an office and every step is a new person to say ‘hello’ to. But I’m finding in Norway, the more you know someone, the more you are expected to say ‘hello’…lol. I walk into that office and every person I pass I get ‘hei!’, ‘hei-a’ or ‘hei, du’. what’s even harder is the pitch they say it in – high and with a cutesy voice. I feel the obliged-pressure to reply in the same manner as I don’t want to offend them. Boy how the tables are turned…lol. (I really should expose this side of Norwegian life…lol)
Hello again!
Just thought I’d add to this since I have now been a resident in Norway for over a year and a half. While most of what I wrote last year still rings true, I have to share what I’ve experienced since living here.
I’ve had quite an ordeal or saga of my own dealing with UDI and certain immigration regulations regarding my resident permit. I am now married to the Norwegian I mentioned previously, and it has been a very frustrating and stressful bureaucratic situation for us both, but I’ll spare the long story and focus on what I have seen or experienced in Norwegian society since moving here.
As some other commenters have stated, when you get to know Norwegians, your interaction with them changes. You are treated very well by those who know you, for the most part. I still experience lots of hospitality, invitations for coffee or parties, interest in my life, genuine concern for my well-being, lots of help or favours, etc. It is admirable and refreshing from American shallowness. However, the “stranger” factor is still the most obvious Norwegian negative. I have experienced dealing so many people completely lacking in common courtesy or “people skills”. For a nation so well-founded on preserving the welfare of each other and extending so much help to the poorer nations, it often baffles me how self-entitled, disrespectful and CLUELESS the “average” Norwegian can be socially.
I wrote before that I am not a sociable person, in general, so I don’t expect a lot from strangers by way of human interaction, but I didn’t expect such social retardation in Norway, either. This is mostly found in the more urban areas, and not as noticeable in the rural areas — where people I’ve met tend to be a lot more courteous.
There is a certain gradient of cultural standards of behaviour in the West that we all come to expect. Of course, cultures are different and they will vary, but with so much globalisation and international exposure, it would seem that the most basic of common courtesies would be understood by all, including Norwegians. There are times when I see Norwegian adults having less knowledge of common courtesy and worse actions than children from other Western nations. The curse that is Janteloven seems to carry on — not so much in the old form of “I am no better or worse than you”, but more like “you are no better than me so I’m going to make you know it while making myself more entitled than you in doing so”. Ugh!!
Also relevant: Rarely have I ever heard an apology for mistakes made by customer service or public personnel or administrators — whether it’s the local kommune office, Telenor, NAV, Rema 1000, Posten, UDI, etc. Whenever anything goes wrong, it seems that no one wants to take responsibility. They either make excuses or just try to pass the problem on to someone else with as little “confrontation” as possible. Norwegians, for the most part, are not very skilled with public relations or effective problem-solving, This is why so many Norwegian companies and businesses love to hire Swedes — because the Swedes are so good at both.
And lastly, there is FAR too much “child worship” here — just like the U.S.— attention and focus ad nauseum on kids. And there is very little discipline or bad behaviour-correction going on from what I can see. It’s probably not unique to Norway, though. Parents throughout the West are doing a very sh*tty job raising their kids, for the most part. Many are setting bad examples themselves and producing the most spoilt children the world has ever seen.
Having said all that, I still feel that Norwegians are some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet — once you go from being a stranger to becoming an acquaintance or friend.
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from L-Jay:
Yes, the longer I live in Norway the more my views change too. And yes, being in the circle helps living in Norway. It seems that Norway expects you to pay your dues first before accepting you ‘into the fold’…lol.
I had a culture shock moment this Christmas. I was going round saying ‘God jul’ to everyone all the time – when I came into work and when I left, when I saw different people I hadn’t met in a long time and at the Christmas party. At the last moment I was (politely) told that I’m not supposed to say ‘God jul’ all the time, only when you are saying it as a good-bye for the last time to someone before Christmas. Now Alta, where I live, is a very small city and you bump into nearly everyone you know every day. So I asked ‘how do you know it is the last time you will see someone before Christmas’? They didn’t know. I was a little sad that I couldn’t say ‘God jul’ as a greeting, a well wish or a common good-bye anymore. So I reverted back to ‘Merry Christmas’ and that was ok by the locals…lol.
God jul og godt nytt år!
Hello!
Is there any racism towards non-white like South Asians in Norway? Is there any discrimination in job marketplace? Is it easy to live with Norwegians?
Thanks
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from L-Jay:
Racism is a strong word but there is certainly a lot of ‘ignorance’ of other cultures. Norwegians in general don’t like ‘immigrants’ but they stick to political correctness and accept them on the terms of learning the language and contributing to society. All the immigrants that I know can only get minimum wage jobs even when well educated.
What about a wealthy immigrant? I mean, I’m a musician with a nice standard of living, I sell my music on iTunes and make some nice profits. I don´t need to, well, work in a normal job. How would Norwegians feel about me if I moved to Norway? I’m from South America, white, green-eyed and educated (please don´t get me wrong, I´m no racist or prejudiced, just want to have an idea)
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from L-Jay:
You need to get out and participate in the Norwegian community. If you live in a city that has a big South American community it is easy to hide away. Being European/Australian, I don’t have as many fellow immigrants here and so therefore can’t join/form communities. That means I have to get out into the Norwegian community if I want friends and to socialise. I think everyone should do the same. It is nice to be able to hang out with people from your own country and speak your home language but that is what will also alienate you from Norway.
As long as you embrace Norwegian customs, langauge and tradition Norwegians will like you.